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The healine and description makes me wonder: what can be called a single organism? The sea grass is comprised of individual plants that are each of identical D

The healine and description makes me wonder: what can be called a single organism? The sea grass is comprised of individual plants that are each of identical DNA, ie they are clones. Does this and their proximity and continuity make them one organism?

noisy_boy 4y ago
If they are all identical DNA, doesn't it make them exceptionally susceptible to something that finds a weak spot in that DNA? Will we hear about the world's largest organism wiped out in world's widest reaching wipeout?
- nickspacek 4y ago
  It might if this "something" is persistent or widespread enough to affect all of the separate colonies of it; it sounds like there are individual patches that are spread out over many kilometers.
  - 323 4y ago
    That "something" can a physical factor like temperature rise or acidity change. Temperature rise is known to have killed some large corals.
- p1mrx 4y ago
  This sort of thing has probably happened many times in Earth's history. Homogeneity works great until it doesn't.
  - usrusr 4y ago
    Spot on. The cavendish banana even recruited a globally present mammal species to spread its clones into all latitudes where it can grow, on both hemispheres. And it's not looking too well for it. (now my brain is playing that song from the chiquita banana ad on loop that was based on Carmen Miranda in The Gang's All Here, as if that movie hadn't already saturated the worldwide demand for banana advertisement for decades)
    - iAmAPencilYo 4y ago
      Not looking well in what sense?
      - gus_massa 4y ago
        In the sense that the Gros Michel [1] was the most popular banana until 1950 when most of the cultivar were destroyed by the Panama disease. The Cavendish also has this problem [2]. See also https://www.americastestkitchen.com/articles/3952-the-reason-artificial-banana-flavor-tastes-nothing-like-real-bananas https://www.americastestkitchen.com/articles/3952-the-reason... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gros_Michel_banana https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gros_Michel_banana [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavendish_banana#Diseases https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavendish_banana#Diseases
deleted 4y ago
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pilaf 4y ago
> The sea grass is comprised of individual plants that are each of identical DNA, ie they are clones. Does this and their proximity and continuity make them one organism? Probably. The top paragraphs in [1] talk about precisely that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Largest_organisms https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Largest_organisms
- mkl 4y ago
  But it sounds like it doesn't have continuity (emphasis mine): "a single polyploid clone spanning more than 180 km in fragmented, near-shore meadows".
triter_than 4y ago
It’s not clear to me whether this clonal colony is like Pando (shared root system) or is just clones next to each other. In the latter case I personally wouldn’t call it one organism. Otherwise you clone a sheep and get a “double sheep” when they share a pen?!
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- jboggan 4y ago
  Unless they establish that it's a single root system I wouldn't dethrone Pando just yet. From the description it's at least 9 separate seagrass beds, so I doubt it's all one system. As a side note, I'm going to see Pando this weekend.
dan_hawkins 4y ago
Richard Dawkins asks that exact question in his "Selfish Gene." For example humans cannot survive without it's gut bacterial flora. So is human a single organism without it or not? Where's the boundary? He also explores self replicating organisms (like mentioned seagrass) and explains benefits of evolution "introducing" sex based replication.
- lkuty 4y ago
  According to Buddhism, there is no boundary. Between a human and the "external" world. This point of view is very interesting.
  - LesZedCB 4y ago
    James Lovelock's Gaia Hypothesis is more or less the scientific equivalent of this. think systems theory of life, planet, rock, gas, organism, etc.
  - steve_adams_86 4y ago
    I’ve begun to think we’re only distinct from other things in the context of consciousness, which is entirely subjective and manufactured by our neurons. The further you go down that rabbit hole, the more you might realize reality as we understand it is totally illusory and not even fully shared across humanity, let alone species. It’s a trip. We are as much a part of the systems we live in as anything. In a sense we aren’t distinct from the external world because there is no internal world to differentiate from. It’s imaginary - it exists only in our neurons, an abstraction to help us navigate reality, just impulses firing along various pathways in a brain.
- whatisjmg 4y ago
  I always thought that biology delineates these organisms from their relationship? They are still clearly seperate organisms, as a human does not require a particular bacterial cell, only that at least one is present in its proper place (the same as all the other cells in the human body). Thus, the "human organism" is an emergent organism from many cells, bacterial or not, acting and interacting non-deterministically. The bacterial cell by its existence allows for the existence of the larger organism. A baby relies on adults to survive as well, but it is not biologically claimed that they are the same organism as the adults they rely on for survival. We all require consumption of living and dead cells to survive as well. We do not claim organic-unification with these other organisms.

noisy_boy 4y ago

If they are all identical DNA, doesn't it make them exceptionally susceptible to something that finds a weak spot in that DNA? Will we hear about the world's largest organism wiped out in world's widest reaching wipeout?

nickspacek 4y ago
It might if this "something" is persistent or widespread enough to affect all of the separate colonies of it; it sounds like there are individual patches that are spread out over many kilometers.
- 323 4y ago
  That "something" can a physical factor like temperature rise or acidity change. Temperature rise is known to have killed some large corals.
p1mrx 4y ago
This sort of thing has probably happened many times in Earth's history. Homogeneity works great until it doesn't.
- usrusr 4y ago
  Spot on. The cavendish banana even recruited a globally present mammal species to spread its clones into all latitudes where it can grow, on both hemispheres. And it's not looking too well for it. (now my brain is playing that song from the chiquita banana ad on loop that was based on Carmen Miranda in The Gang's All Here, as if that movie hadn't already saturated the worldwide demand for banana advertisement for decades)
  - iAmAPencilYo 4y ago
    Not looking well in what sense?
    - gus_massa 4y ago
      In the sense that the Gros Michel [1] was the most popular banana until 1950 when most of the cultivar were destroyed by the Panama disease. The Cavendish also has this problem [2]. See also https://www.americastestkitchen.com/articles/3952-the-reason-artificial-banana-flavor-tastes-nothing-like-real-bananas https://www.americastestkitchen.com/articles/3952-the-reason... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gros_Michel_banana https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gros_Michel_banana [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavendish_banana#Diseases https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavendish_banana#Diseases

deleted 4y ago

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pilaf 4y ago

> The sea grass is comprised of individual plants that are each of identical DNA, ie they are clones. Does this and their proximity and continuity make them one organism? Probably. The top paragraphs in [1] talk about precisely that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Largest_organisms https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Largest_organisms

mkl 4y ago
But it sounds like it doesn't have continuity (emphasis mine): "a single polyploid clone spanning more than 180 km in fragmented, near-shore meadows".

triter_than 4y ago

It’s not clear to me whether this clonal colony is like Pando (shared root system) or is just clones next to each other. In the latter case I personally wouldn’t call it one organism. Otherwise you clone a sheep and get a “double sheep” when they share a pen?!

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
jboggan 4y ago
Unless they establish that it's a single root system I wouldn't dethrone Pando just yet. From the description it's at least 9 separate seagrass beds, so I doubt it's all one system. As a side note, I'm going to see Pando this weekend.

dan_hawkins 4y ago

Richard Dawkins asks that exact question in his "Selfish Gene." For example humans cannot survive without it's gut bacterial flora. So is human a single organism without it or not? Where's the boundary? He also explores self replicating organisms (like mentioned seagrass) and explains benefits of evolution "introducing" sex based replication.

lkuty 4y ago
According to Buddhism, there is no boundary. Between a human and the "external" world. This point of view is very interesting.
- LesZedCB 4y ago
  James Lovelock's Gaia Hypothesis is more or less the scientific equivalent of this. think systems theory of life, planet, rock, gas, organism, etc.
- steve_adams_86 4y ago
  I’ve begun to think we’re only distinct from other things in the context of consciousness, which is entirely subjective and manufactured by our neurons. The further you go down that rabbit hole, the more you might realize reality as we understand it is totally illusory and not even fully shared across humanity, let alone species. It’s a trip. We are as much a part of the systems we live in as anything. In a sense we aren’t distinct from the external world because there is no internal world to differentiate from. It’s imaginary - it exists only in our neurons, an abstraction to help us navigate reality, just impulses firing along various pathways in a brain.
whatisjmg 4y ago
I always thought that biology delineates these organisms from their relationship? They are still clearly seperate organisms, as a human does not require a particular bacterial cell, only that at least one is present in its proper place (the same as all the other cells in the human body). Thus, the "human organism" is an emergent organism from many cells, bacterial or not, acting and interacting non-deterministically. The bacterial cell by its existence allows for the existence of the larger organism. A baby relies on adults to survive as well, but it is not biologically claimed that they are the same organism as the adults they rely on for survival. We all require consumption of living and dead cells to survive as well. We do not claim organic-unification with these other organisms.