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In Europe we have a rather healthy conversation on 4-day work weeks and 40h maximum. Why is the US tech industry so rooted in Presence culture?
by ng55QPSK 4y ago
In Europe we have a rather healthy conversation on 4-day work weeks and 40h maximum. Why is the US tech industry so rooted in Presence culture?
- TheGigaChad 4y ago
- iancmceachern 4y agoBecause the leaders of many companies have somehow tied their personal ego to it.
- icelancer 4y agoNot sure. Since we're asking hypothetical questions about work tied to productivity, why are there almost no EU companies on the top 30 annual revenue list in the technology sector?
- oaiey 4y agoIt is not the working hours (since this does not scale) but about putting work before anything else (little to no vacation, working in the middle of the night, flying to Asia with a day notice, making brutal decisions, ...)
- assttoasstmgr 4y agoI assume they were on vacation when the surveys were mailed out
- thealig 4y agobeing on the top 30 annual revenue list does not necessarily tell you anything about productivity or presence culture of the companies in question. it could also entail those companies having more customers and better marketing budget, which can result in good network effect(along with good enough product of course)
- ng55QPSK 4y agoFirst: Do you really rate success by looking at revenue only? Second: The Europe parts of e.g. Apple play a big role in developing the future of the US company, but revenue seems to be accounting to US only ...
- ceeplusplus 4y ago> The Europe parts of e.g. Apple play a big role in developing the future of the US company Not a great example, considering the recent Axx SoCs and M1 SoCs that have transformed Macs as a product and differentiated iPhones from Android were entirely developed in Silicon Valley. Most of the software and hardware engineering happens in the Valley as well.
- DoingIsLearning 4y agoIt is mostly due to differences in funding. EU funding is typically small government grants or seed money. Investors are culturally a _lot_ more risk averse if comparing with the US. None of the tech sector in the US would exist without NSF, darpa, and NY,SV investors. Most of the success stories in the EU have been with companies that secured capital from US funds. The only exception I can think of from the top of my head is Nokia and ASML.
- ChuckNorris89 4y agoNokia doesn't really exist anymore except being a marketing machine and name brand for Chinese made OEM Android phones, and a networking device manufacturer with sweat-shop style dev offices in Eastern Europe because they're not competitive on Western wages due to chinese competitors like Huawei stealing/eating their lunch. It's only a shadow of its former self.
- icelancer 4y agoYeah, but it used to be a huge company and it shaped the future of mobile phones forever, so I think it's fair to point out the major success it did have. It should be a lasting legacy, even if it turned out poorly.
- ChuckNorris89 4y agoA glorious past is pretty irelevant in the current market when you consider all the EU hardware jobs that have been lost or offshored in the process of Nokia's decline. It's one of the reasons why embedded gigs pay so little in the EU.
- icelancer 4y ago>> None of the tech sector in the US would exist without NSF, darpa, and NY,SV investors. "None" is probably a bit much but I agree it rounds to a number close to zero.
- 9935c101ab17a66 4y agoIs that the most valuable measure of success you can think of? Can you prove that there’s a meaningful relationship between people having to spend less time in a physical office and tech company annual revenue? ( spoiler alert: you can’t) Also, why didn’t you just clearly outline your argument? It seems you’re implying that America is more financially successful than Europe because the US has a toxic addiction to perceived ‘work ethic’.
- icelancer 4y agoIf EU companies and people are so sure their method of running a business is more successful than US companies, I just figured sales/revenue would at least somewhat reflect these opinions.
- 9935c101ab17a66 4y agoAnd then you choose one questionable metric, and didn’t explain why you found it compelling or how it is is meaningfully related to work culture?
- drawfloat 4y agoDunno, but also don't really care when the actual life quality, health and happiness of the workers at said countries are generally better.
- DrBazza 4y agoLanguage and bureaucracy? The UK and US both speak English and are closely aligned in terms of business practices, and even the smaller East coast Uk time zone difference has a bearing.
- spideymans 4y agoIn American culture, appearing to work hard is a virtue. It’s arguably a byproduct of America’s Protestant work ethic[0]. 0: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic
- refurb 4y agoAnd why are Asian cultures even more hard working? Protestantism too?
- ceeplusplus 4y agoBecause pretty much every Asian country was a rural wasteland in the 50s and 60s, and hard work and education is what got a lot of people out of that poverty. If you're white/only speak English, Chinese 40-60 year olds probably won't talk about this in front of you, but it's a widespread belief in China that Americans don't know what true poverty is like and are thus lazy.
- kube-system 4y agoThey’re not wrong. Poverty is relative. It can look quite different in different places.
- sofixa 4y agoThat kind of makes sense, but not for Japan, which industrialised in the 19th century, so wasn't poor "a rural wasteland". It was war devastated post-WW2, but my understanding was that the working culture was there since industrialisation - which to be fair, was also the case in Europe until labour movements brought regulations at the cost of their blood. Maybe Japan just missed that train due to a combination of factors?
- djhn 4y agoI want to say poverty as a one word one liner, but I'm really interested in a genuine explanataion. However poverty and appearing to work hard to be at the top of an extremely competitive scramble out of poverty is my rough idea that isn't too hand-wavey in the direction of religion or culture.
- scyzoryk_xyz 4y agoSounds like a different Europe than the one I’m in
- refurb 4y agoI mean I work in a high tech field and my European colleagues are busting ass as much as I am, I was surprised to see not much difference. They probably get comp time in a much more formal way when days or week run long. In my US office, you just take your own comp time.
- SyzygistSix 4y agoSame amount of vacation days?
- refurb 4y agoNot sure about all European countries but I get 25 days per year.
- Foobar8568 4y agoWhere in Europe? Because in Switzerland and France, the presence culture is more present than ever.
- ChuckNorris89 4y agoSame in Germany, Austria and Belgium. Everyone I know there in a medium to large company has been called back into the office. Parent is taking his personal anecdote and extrapolating it to the whole continent for a cheap shot at the US when in my experience the US has so far much better remote and WFH acceptance for skilled professions than Europe due to their stronger tech jobs market where their tech employees have more leverage. I found the Austrian/German management culture to be far more conservative and attached to measuring productivity by butts-in-seats time or your clocked-in time, than the US management which just looked at your outputs and doesn't care you've only been doing 3 hours of actual work and playing videogames the rest of your day, as long as you delivered what was agreed upon, VS my German manager who gave me a dressing down for seeing me spend "too much time scrolling on HN", despite me shipping everything on time. Also most EU tech and white collar workers still work 40h/week. Those who work less are a fringe but very loud minority but they're not the norm. Even my friend at BMW Munich has overtime hours in his contract and never does less than 40h/week.
- BlargMcLarg 4y agoSame for The Netherlands, which tops the lowest hours worked weekly. In person culture seems to have very little in common with hours worked.
- SyzygistSix 4y agoBut how much vacation time are they taking off? Twice as much as their US equivalents?
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago25 days/year in Austria + public holidays. Don't know how that compares to the US.
- BlargMcLarg 4y agoWhere are you getting the idea the 40h workweeks are helping conversion to a non-Presence culture? My experiences are quite the opposite
- powerapple 4y agoIsn't it why most valuable companies and startups are in US?
- mantas 4y agoBecause US investors give much higher valuations much easier.
- pedrogpimenta 4y agoProbably. But is it worth it, for people? I mean, a country would maybe have more valuable companies of they all have slaves slaving away for peanuts. I mean, it would create value, right? Actually we wouldn't have some of the most valuable building in the world if it weren't for slaves (or the next best thing). But again: is it worth it? Do overworked individuals really benefit from living in a country that has the most valuable companies?
- ryanbrunner 4y agoThe argument I guess is that more GDP is more prosperity for the country, but with income inequality rising to the level that it is in the US, I don't think it matters much to the average worker that GDP is increasing if they're not getting any benefit from it.
- powerapple 4y agoI don't think so. How is US tech company's salary peanuts? You can work for sometime and happily retire, something you cannot do in the UK. It is a choice people can make. The whole concept of Economy is slavery in a way, economy will grow if people work (or increase productivity), something we have to participate unfortunately. There is inflation making sure you will not have enough tomorrow. The only people are making out of the loop is people working in tech industry.