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> I'm not saying France doesn't have power from gas. I'm saying that the reason we have gas plants is completely unrelated to nuclear. According to this line o

> I'm not saying France doesn't have power from gas. I'm saying that the reason we have gas plants is completely unrelated to nuclear. According to this line of thought we prefer gas over nuclear. This is not true: on an economic perspective and also emission-wise nuclear + hydro is a better tandem. However it cannot fully cope and needs 'backup', which is nowadays mainly gas turbines in powerplants. Why, in your opinion, do we need to use those gas turbines? Right now https://www.rte-france.com/eco2mix https://www.rte-france.com/eco2mix shows 9% gas, and everyone can check that it is a quite common figure: https://www.rte-france.com/eco2mix/la-production-delectricite-par-filiere https://www.rte-france.com/eco2mix/la-production-delectricit... > The article you quote does say the opposite No, your quote means "nuclear can be used", it is true and I don't deny it: I showed limits (stated in the very same document), meaning that nuclear follow-up cannot be done "at will", and also that other non-desirable (but more flexible) sources (gas) are in use. Why are they in use, if not in order to compensate nuclear's limits? Why do we need fossil fuel for power generation?

pyrale 4y ago
> Why, in your opinion, do we need to use those gas turbines? Because we need the power, simply. That's unrelated to the other plants we have, though. > I showed limits (stated in the very same document) These limits are not preventing NPPs to participate in both primary and secondary reserve mechanisms which are used to balance the power grid. See [1] for more details. [1]: https://hal-edf.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-01977209/document https://hal-edf.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-01977209/document
- natmaka 4y ago
  > Because we need the power True (in order to generate electricity demanded during peak consumption), and it doesn't preclude other uses (load-following). Everyone can check (for example at https://www.rte-france.com/eco2mix https://www.rte-france.com/eco2mix ) that many gas turbines are up and running, and really producing (they aren't in "maintaining warm mode, with minimal production, in order to be ready quickly to ramp up") even outside of peak load. > NPPs to participate in both primary and secondary reserve mechanisms Yes, they do participate. The point is for them to be sufficient, to do it all by themselves, to let us get rid of fossil fuel: they don't. The very document you reference (it is very interesting, thank you) abstract state aforementioned limits: "EDF’s nuclear reactors have the capability to vary their output between 20% and 100% within 30 minutes, twice a day, when operating in load-following mode" then "thermal fleet (mostly gas turbines or combined cycles) are used for mid-merit and peak generation."
  - pyrale 4y ago
    > Everyone can check that many gas turbines are up and running, and really producing even outside of peak load. That is and will remain true regardless of NPP's status. If anything, because only one of the power providers uses nuclear. > state aforementioned limits The needs for power modulation we have are within these limits for scheduled daily variations. Daily variations are not the same as load following. Besides, the document also states that NPPs have other mechanism to tune power produced (+/- 2% over 30 seconds, and +/- 5% over 15 minutes). These other mechanisms are the ones used for load following, and are fully automated. See pp. 4 and 5.
    - natmaka 4y ago
      Whenever load-following is necessary the best way (marginal cost, emissions...) to provide it is preferred, and a nuclear is better, on those account, than a gas turbine. Therefore if a gas turbine takes the load, nuclear could not do so (or there is some widespread and long-going sabotage?). All mechanisms used to tune power are pauses-inducing (depending upon the fuel state...), they cannot be used at will. If I'm wrong please explicitly write here that a "the (thermal) power generated by an existing and active industrial French nuclear reactor can always be freely modulated, without any limit nor any need to sometimes abstain from doing so for a while".
      - pyrale 4y ago
        > Therefore if a gas turbine takes the load Load following isn't about a plant being started or stopped, it's an automatic mechanism that is either handled without any intervention (primary reserve : the plant's turbine monitors the frequency and adapts over 30s) or with interventions from the grid operator only (secondary reserve: RTE's systems have the hand on the providers' facilities). Every plant that participates in load following does it through the same mechanism, nuclear or gas doesn't matter. What you describe is merit order, and it's not happening at the same operating level. > Therefore if a gas turbine takes the load, nuclear could not do so We do have examples of nuclear being used this way. It is likely that gas plants are also used this way, since every power provider is required to participate, and some french providers don't have NPPs. > All mechanisms used to tune power are pauses-inducing (depending upon the fuel state...), they cannot be used at will. Not sure what you mean by that. Like gas plants, nuclear plants work by heating water. This means that this water buffers some energy, and that buffer can be used for fast but small power variations, with minimal impact on the pipe system. As for large variations in power, such as the 100% -> 20% change you quoted, they are scheduled ahead of time, and you can find technical explanations on how operators do that. As you noted, there are obviously bounds to variations. As you said, they can't be used at will. One thing you seem to neglect, though, is that flexibility requirements are within these bounds. That means that power variations required can be serviced while staying within the limits of the system. This means that what you're asking for: "active industrial French nuclear reactor can always be freely modulated" would be unnecessary gold-plating.

pyrale 4y ago

> Why, in your opinion, do we need to use those gas turbines? Because we need the power, simply. That's unrelated to the other plants we have, though. > I showed limits (stated in the very same document) These limits are not preventing NPPs to participate in both primary and secondary reserve mechanisms which are used to balance the power grid. See [1] for more details. [1]: https://hal-edf.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-01977209/document https://hal-edf.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-01977209/document

natmaka 4y ago
> Because we need the power True (in order to generate electricity demanded during peak consumption), and it doesn't preclude other uses (load-following). Everyone can check (for example at https://www.rte-france.com/eco2mix https://www.rte-france.com/eco2mix ) that many gas turbines are up and running, and really producing (they aren't in "maintaining warm mode, with minimal production, in order to be ready quickly to ramp up") even outside of peak load. > NPPs to participate in both primary and secondary reserve mechanisms Yes, they do participate. The point is for them to be sufficient, to do it all by themselves, to let us get rid of fossil fuel: they don't. The very document you reference (it is very interesting, thank you) abstract state aforementioned limits: "EDF’s nuclear reactors have the capability to vary their output between 20% and 100% within 30 minutes, twice a day, when operating in load-following mode" then "thermal fleet (mostly gas turbines or combined cycles) are used for mid-merit and peak generation."
- pyrale 4y ago
  > Everyone can check that many gas turbines are up and running, and really producing even outside of peak load. That is and will remain true regardless of NPP's status. If anything, because only one of the power providers uses nuclear. > state aforementioned limits The needs for power modulation we have are within these limits for scheduled daily variations. Daily variations are not the same as load following. Besides, the document also states that NPPs have other mechanism to tune power produced (+/- 2% over 30 seconds, and +/- 5% over 15 minutes). These other mechanisms are the ones used for load following, and are fully automated. See pp. 4 and 5.
  - natmaka 4y ago
    Whenever load-following is necessary the best way (marginal cost, emissions...) to provide it is preferred, and a nuclear is better, on those account, than a gas turbine. Therefore if a gas turbine takes the load, nuclear could not do so (or there is some widespread and long-going sabotage?). All mechanisms used to tune power are pauses-inducing (depending upon the fuel state...), they cannot be used at will. If I'm wrong please explicitly write here that a "the (thermal) power generated by an existing and active industrial French nuclear reactor can always be freely modulated, without any limit nor any need to sometimes abstain from doing so for a while".
    - pyrale 4y ago
      > Therefore if a gas turbine takes the load Load following isn't about a plant being started or stopped, it's an automatic mechanism that is either handled without any intervention (primary reserve : the plant's turbine monitors the frequency and adapts over 30s) or with interventions from the grid operator only (secondary reserve: RTE's systems have the hand on the providers' facilities). Every plant that participates in load following does it through the same mechanism, nuclear or gas doesn't matter. What you describe is merit order, and it's not happening at the same operating level. > Therefore if a gas turbine takes the load, nuclear could not do so We do have examples of nuclear being used this way. It is likely that gas plants are also used this way, since every power provider is required to participate, and some french providers don't have NPPs. > All mechanisms used to tune power are pauses-inducing (depending upon the fuel state...), they cannot be used at will. Not sure what you mean by that. Like gas plants, nuclear plants work by heating water. This means that this water buffers some energy, and that buffer can be used for fast but small power variations, with minimal impact on the pipe system. As for large variations in power, such as the 100% -> 20% change you quoted, they are scheduled ahead of time, and you can find technical explanations on how operators do that. As you noted, there are obviously bounds to variations. As you said, they can't be used at will. One thing you seem to neglect, though, is that flexibility requirements are within these bounds. That means that power variations required can be serviced while staying within the limits of the system. This means that what you're asking for: "active industrial French nuclear reactor can always be freely modulated" would be unnecessary gold-plating.