3 ms·

>What makes the framework repairable isn't board-level schematics, its the modularity and access. why not both? no one in their right mind can argue that NDAi

by serf 4y ago

>What makes the framework repairable isn't board-level schematics, its the modularity and access. why not both? no one in their right mind can argue that NDAing and walling documentation aids the repair effort. so.. in other words.. framework is repairable up until the point that it may hurt their bottom-end profits; then you're on your own. maybe they should get into selling board-level components so that they have a financial incentive to act morally and within their projected image of 'right-to-repair' advocacy.

runnerup 4y ago
> maybe they should get into selling board-level components so that they have a financial incentive to act morally and within their projected image of 'right-to-repair' advocacy. That might help if the component packs had a decent loyalty markup. I'm sure repair shops and DIY'ers would love to have access to guaranteed-exact-same-components. Just buying the same number from the datasheet doesn't always guarantee identical electrical characterization across different manufacturers and batches. The primary issue Framework is facing (AIUI) is that if they release the complete board-level schematics, enterprises in Shenzhen will immediately release Framework clones (and sub-module clones) which are part-for-part compatible with the actual Framework laptops. This could undercut their business model at a very high-risk time for their company. They're incredibly capital-constrained and need to meet their pricing/sales targets just to survive (not even considering making their investors happy). Framework is a bit of a "Tech Fad" at the moment, and consumers have historically been known to be incredibly price-conscious, even sometimes demonizing the companies who did the original innovation after they can't meet or beat the clones prices or functionality (I recall this with Arduino). This would make me super wary of releasing the full schematics as well. I would be very suprised if Rossmann Repair was unaware of the NDA. I suspect Framework are being very very magnanimous in their communications here. Rossmann Group probably omitted that context in slightly bad faith to pressure Framework a bit more. That's normal for zealots -- and it is still a symbiotic ecosystem...Rossmann Group laid so much of the foundation needed for Framework to thrive! Also some of Framework's investors (Linus of Linus Tech Tips) were directly responsible for mediating/facilitating/negotiating the current schematic NDA arrangement after listening to Rossmann's critiques as a pre-condition to investing their money, time, and reputation. It would be strange if that story had somehow slipped past Rossmann Group... [Edit: According to others, Louis has a video where he acknowledges the current situation and empathizes with Framework about it, so clearly Rossman is aware. Other people have since mentioned that Framework may be legally unable to release the schematics because they are based on licensed designs from an ODM or chipset/component supplier. In which case, perhaps this video from Rossmann group is designed to help the public put pressure on those upstream IP stakeholders.] I do agree with 'LeonM. Eventually the detailed schematics they provide to repair shops will leak or be stolen or whatever anyways. But I understand Frameworks concerns. There's a need for truly open source hardware. Please support the projects at CrowdSupply[0] ... many of which do have truly open source hardware+software+schematics+PCB Layout Files. And they are nearly all very very small "cottage industry" side-gigs which desperately need the financial enthusiasm and participatory enthusiasm of early adopters in order to thrive. 0: http://crowdsupply.com/ http://crowdsupply.com/
- CamperBob2 4y ago
  Lack of schematics does not stop anyone in Shenzhen. If they want to clone your device, they will clone your device, along with its packaging and the store it's sold in.
toma_caliente 4y ago
You're making a very bold claim that they won't do it because of money. In an earlier video, Louis Rossmann said he can't publicly say what those reasons are but that he understands them. It is not something I would expect him to say if it was purely "they want to make more money."
- colordrops 4y ago
  What would be a legitimate reason that he can't publicly say why? Certainly he would be allowed to say that Intel or some other supplier doesn't allow them to share the specs. So it must be some other reason.
  - toma_caliente 4y ago
    > What would be a legitimate reason that he can't publicly say why? I have no idea. Don't have a clue. However, given that I don't have any idea, I'm not going to go around making bold definitive claims like 'they do it because they want more money."
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

by serf 4y ago

runnerup 4y ago

> maybe they should get into selling board-level components so that they have a financial incentive to act morally and within their projected image of 'right-to-repair' advocacy. That might help if the component packs had a decent loyalty markup. I'm sure repair shops and DIY'ers would love to have access to guaranteed-exact-same-components. Just buying the same number from the datasheet doesn't always guarantee identical electrical characterization across different manufacturers and batches. The primary issue Framework is facing (AIUI) is that if they release the complete board-level schematics, enterprises in Shenzhen will immediately release Framework clones (and sub-module clones) which are part-for-part compatible with the actual Framework laptops. This could undercut their business model at a very high-risk time for their company. They're incredibly capital-constrained and need to meet their pricing/sales targets just to survive (not even considering making their investors happy). Framework is a bit of a "Tech Fad" at the moment, and consumers have historically been known to be incredibly price-conscious, even sometimes demonizing the companies who did the original innovation after they can't meet or beat the clones prices or functionality (I recall this with Arduino). This would make me super wary of releasing the full schematics as well. I would be very suprised if Rossmann Repair was unaware of the NDA. I suspect Framework are being very very magnanimous in their communications here. Rossmann Group probably omitted that context in slightly bad faith to pressure Framework a bit more. That's normal for zealots -- and it is still a symbiotic ecosystem...Rossmann Group laid so much of the foundation needed for Framework to thrive! Also some of Framework's investors (Linus of Linus Tech Tips) were directly responsible for mediating/facilitating/negotiating the current schematic NDA arrangement after listening to Rossmann's critiques as a pre-condition to investing their money, time, and reputation. It would be strange if that story had somehow slipped past Rossmann Group... [Edit: According to others, Louis has a video where he acknowledges the current situation and empathizes with Framework about it, so clearly Rossman is aware. Other people have since mentioned that Framework may be legally unable to release the schematics because they are based on licensed designs from an ODM or chipset/component supplier. In which case, perhaps this video from Rossmann group is designed to help the public put pressure on those upstream IP stakeholders.] I do agree with 'LeonM. Eventually the detailed schematics they provide to repair shops will leak or be stolen or whatever anyways. But I understand Frameworks concerns. There's a need for truly open source hardware. Please support the projects at CrowdSupply[0] ... many of which do have truly open source hardware+software+schematics+PCB Layout Files. And they are nearly all very very small "cottage industry" side-gigs which desperately need the financial enthusiasm and participatory enthusiasm of early adopters in order to thrive. 0: http://crowdsupply.com/ http://crowdsupply.com/

CamperBob2 4y ago
Lack of schematics does not stop anyone in Shenzhen. If they want to clone your device, they will clone your device, along with its packaging and the store it's sold in.

toma_caliente 4y ago

You're making a very bold claim that they won't do it because of money. In an earlier video, Louis Rossmann said he can't publicly say what those reasons are but that he understands them. It is not something I would expect him to say if it was purely "they want to make more money."

colordrops 4y ago
What would be a legitimate reason that he can't publicly say why? Certainly he would be allowed to say that Intel or some other supplier doesn't allow them to share the specs. So it must be some other reason.
- toma_caliente 4y ago
  > What would be a legitimate reason that he can't publicly say why? I have no idea. Don't have a clue. However, given that I don't have any idea, I'm not going to go around making bold definitive claims like 'they do it because they want more money."

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]