4 ms·

> lot of extra work and damage to the brand As a framework owner I wouldn't personally care if they never released them at all. What makes the framework repair

by jjcon 4y ago

> lot of extra work and damage to the brand As a framework owner I wouldn't personally care if they never released them at all. What makes the framework repairable isn't board-level schematics, its the modularity and access (similar to a desktop). If a part in my framework breaks I'll just replace the individual part. IMO there is no brand damage here outside of some purists calling for things 99.9% of customers don't give 2 shits about.

bobsmooth 4y ago
>outside of some purists calling for things 99.9% of customers don't give 2 shits about. I'm sure if Louis or another technician told you "I could fix your mainboard, but I don't have the schematics. Buy a whole separate board for $400 and I'll install it for you." You might be a little ticked.
- jjcon 4y ago
  1) Framework provides schematics to repair shops that ask 2) Modularity keeps the cost of individual components so low that board-level repair isn't nearly as important. What would Louis charge me? $350 at least for shipping and time according to similar quotes I've seen of his.
  - LightHugger 4y ago
    You seem awfully sure that board level repair isn't worth it, what did you base that opinion on?
    - jjcon 4y ago
      See my above comments - I've had board level repairs done before and they aren't cheap. Best case scenario with the framework modular design, you save $50 and get back an old part that is prone to additional failures. With modularity you can buy and replace just the part you need and maybe even upgrade while you're at it. Having both would be ideal but isn't always practical due to agreements with chip suppliers etc. Framework is a huge step in the right direction and I don't think being puristic about things is helpful for the right to repair movement.
  - tomxor 4y ago
    > board-level repair is hardly worth it Not worth the time and money? or the reduced environmental impact?
  - serf 4y ago
    >2) Modularity keeps the cost of individual components so low that board-level repair is hardly worth it. What would Louis charge me? $350 for shipping and time? I don't know where you get your numbers, and Louis isn't the only person in the world with the ability to repair this stuff; you can make up a number so that it seems anti-competitive against the idea of modularity and buying a whole new replacement module -- but let it be said that these repairs can be done fairly cheap with some research and a bit of parts gathering. Cheaper than 350 cheap, in most cases.
    - minhazm 4y ago
      > Logic board repair – $250-$425 (depending on model) From https://www.rossmanngroup.com/liquid-damage/ https://www.rossmanngroup.com/liquid-damage/. Their pricing is fairly competitive, you won't find many places that are significantly cheaper for good quality work. > but let it be said that these repairs can be done fairly cheap with some research and a bit of parts gathering. Cheaper than 350 cheap, in most cases. I don't know about that for component level repairs. Sure you can replace a hard drive, memory, a wifi card or a fan but those can all be done already with the Framework laptop without the detailed schematics. Most people are not knowledgeable enough and even if they were they likely wouldn't feel comfortable doing component level repairs on a motherboard, especially if they have to do any soldering. There's a reason that the vast majority of places computer repair places don't do component level repairs. You need a lot of expertise to do so, and that expertise doesn't come cheap.
      - sigstoat 4y ago
        > There's a reason that the vast majority of places computer repair places don't do component level repairs. You need a lot of expertise to do so, and that expertise doesn't come cheap. you also need tooling. $20 radio shack soldering iron from dad won’t do it for anything that’s worth the labor costs. if you don’t have any of that you’ll be spending $350 to get the bare minimum to practice the job.
    - jknoepfler 4y ago
      $350 is basically free in terms of skilled technician time to solve a problem that requires any non-trivial amount of investigation. You're devaluing the labor and thinking only in terms of the raw materials.
  - jkhdigital 4y ago
    I was an aviation electronics technician in the Navy, and I can say from experience that it is very easy to underestimate the time and effort that can go into a component-level repair job. I once troubleshot a faulty RF power meter down to a single transistor, and it was incredibly gratifying to see it working after replacing a sub-$1 part but if I was paid by the hour it would’ve been an unprofitable job for sure.
serf 4y ago
>What makes the framework repairable isn't board-level schematics, its the modularity and access. why not both? no one in their right mind can argue that NDAing and walling documentation aids the repair effort. so.. in other words.. framework is repairable up until the point that it may hurt their bottom-end profits; then you're on your own. maybe they should get into selling board-level components so that they have a financial incentive to act morally and within their projected image of 'right-to-repair' advocacy.
- runnerup 4y ago
  > maybe they should get into selling board-level components so that they have a financial incentive to act morally and within their projected image of 'right-to-repair' advocacy. That might help if the component packs had a decent loyalty markup. I'm sure repair shops and DIY'ers would love to have access to guaranteed-exact-same-components. Just buying the same number from the datasheet doesn't always guarantee identical electrical characterization across different manufacturers and batches. The primary issue Framework is facing (AIUI) is that if they release the complete board-level schematics, enterprises in Shenzhen will immediately release Framework clones (and sub-module clones) which are part-for-part compatible with the actual Framework laptops. This could undercut their business model at a very high-risk time for their company. They're incredibly capital-constrained and need to meet their pricing/sales targets just to survive (not even considering making their investors happy). Framework is a bit of a "Tech Fad" at the moment, and consumers have historically been known to be incredibly price-conscious, even sometimes demonizing the companies who did the original innovation after they can't meet or beat the clones prices or functionality (I recall this with Arduino). This would make me super wary of releasing the full schematics as well. I would be very suprised if Rossmann Repair was unaware of the NDA. I suspect Framework are being very very magnanimous in their communications here. Rossmann Group probably omitted that context in slightly bad faith to pressure Framework a bit more. That's normal for zealots -- and it is still a symbiotic ecosystem...Rossmann Group laid so much of the foundation needed for Framework to thrive! Also some of Framework's investors (Linus of Linus Tech Tips) were directly responsible for mediating/facilitating/negotiating the current schematic NDA arrangement after listening to Rossmann's critiques as a pre-condition to investing their money, time, and reputation. It would be strange if that story had somehow slipped past Rossmann Group... [Edit: According to others, Louis has a video where he acknowledges the current situation and empathizes with Framework about it, so clearly Rossman is aware. Other people have since mentioned that Framework may be legally unable to release the schematics because they are based on licensed designs from an ODM or chipset/component supplier. In which case, perhaps this video from Rossmann group is designed to help the public put pressure on those upstream IP stakeholders.] I do agree with 'LeonM. Eventually the detailed schematics they provide to repair shops will leak or be stolen or whatever anyways. But I understand Frameworks concerns. There's a need for truly open source hardware. Please support the projects at CrowdSupply[0] ... many of which do have truly open source hardware+software+schematics+PCB Layout Files. And they are nearly all very very small "cottage industry" side-gigs which desperately need the financial enthusiasm and participatory enthusiasm of early adopters in order to thrive. 0: http://crowdsupply.com/ http://crowdsupply.com/
chrisseaton 4y ago
> some purists calling for things 99.9% of customers don't give 2 shits about But isn’t that the whole idea of Framework? If you didn’t care about this stuff you’d buy a MacBook like everyone else.
- jjcon 4y ago
  No, not at all. The whole idea is modularity, upgradabilty and access. Most technies people know how to swap out an nvme or ram, basically any ifixit level repair. Board level repairs is a whole other ballpark and the need is reduced greatly due to a modular design. People like that desktops are modular, you can easily replace a single part when it breaks or upgrade a part too. Framework is the equivalent for laptops.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
palijer 4y ago
I give a shit what happens to the module I replace. Individual parts go down to the components on the board, there is a distinction between repair and replace.
tintedfireglass 4y ago
Aren't all laptops that aren't macs easily repairable? RAM, SSD, battery, keyboard(but in many laptops the whole top panel has to be replaced), track pad, wifi card, display(framework has the better way only over here). I mean buying a tongfang OR a system 76 is a way better option than going for framework due to its QR codes I don't understand why. I'm not shitting on framework this is just what I've been wanting to ask for so long
- spindle 4y ago
  I'm not an expert myself, but ifixit says that very few laptops are easily repairable.
- maccard 4y ago
  > Aren't all laptops that aren't macs easily repairable? No. Many laptops, particularly in the compact category come with soldered RAM and SSDs.
hda2 4y ago
> What makes the framework repairable isn't board-level schematics, its the modularity and access (similar to a desktop). That's just wrong. Modularity and repairability are two very different things. They are not interchangeable.
- jjcon 4y ago
  And only 4 other laptops have scored as high as framework for repairability since 2010 - and only 1 other from this decade, none of which were as modular or upgradeable after the fact. https://www.ifixit.com/laptop-repairability?sort=score https://www.ifixit.com/laptop-repairability?sort=score
  - rasz 4y ago
    Its an aspirational score. Like that Obama Nobel peace prize https://www.latimes.com/projects/la-na-pol-obama-at-war/ https://www.latimes.com/projects/la-na-pol-obama-at-war/ while he was associating people with drones, bystanders included. "The Framework Laptop repair guides are free and easily accessible" .. if you sign the NDA somehow missing from that sentence.
ClumsyPilot 4y ago
> some purists calling for things 99.9% of customers don't give 2 shits about. It is really arrogant to proclaim that 99.9% of consumers share your opinion and financial privilidge of not caring about repairs. Polls consistently show that modt xustomers want repairs and repairability, for laptops >50%, and something like 30% would attempt repairs themselves. We have a real problem with folks like yourself denying that we, people who want repair, even exist. And companies making parts impossible to get hold of. https://yougov.co.uk/topics/technology/articles-reports/2020/05/07/45-smartphone-owners-would-rather-upgrade-repair https://yougov.co.uk/topics/technology/articles-reports/2020... https://yougov.co.uk/topics/consumer/articles-reports/2021/07/01/right-repair-appliances-brits-fix https://yougov.co.uk/topics/consumer/articles-reports/2021/0...
- rpdillon 4y ago
  Are you talking about soldering on the mainboard, or replacing broken parts? It's hard for me to imagine that 30% of customers want to attempt to solder new parts onto their laptop mainboard, which is what I think this discussion is about. There's more discussion upthread, but work that requires board schematics also requires exceptional tooling, expertise, and time, and is therefore also quite expensive ($250-$425 was the number quoted upthread).
  - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
    > work that requires board schematics also requires exceptional tooling, expertise, and time, and is therefore also quite expensive ($250-$425 was the number quoted upthread). Stop thinking about the West, the rest of the world exists. Where do you think your monitor goes when you throw it away because an $1 capacitor has blown? Not into a black hole. Our broken devices get shipped to other countries as e-waste. There cost of labour is $5 and people want to repair that device and keep it going for 40 years. If you want ti say 'i dont care about other countries', then you will have to recycle this shit domestically and pay real money for it's disposal- and then repairing will look different economically
    - jjcon 4y ago

by jjcon 4y ago

bobsmooth 4y ago

>outside of some purists calling for things 99.9% of customers don't give 2 shits about. I'm sure if Louis or another technician told you "I could fix your mainboard, but I don't have the schematics. Buy a whole separate board for $400 and I'll install it for you." You might be a little ticked.

jjcon 4y ago
1) Framework provides schematics to repair shops that ask 2) Modularity keeps the cost of individual components so low that board-level repair isn't nearly as important. What would Louis charge me? $350 at least for shipping and time according to similar quotes I've seen of his.
- LightHugger 4y ago
  You seem awfully sure that board level repair isn't worth it, what did you base that opinion on?
  - jjcon 4y ago
    See my above comments - I've had board level repairs done before and they aren't cheap. Best case scenario with the framework modular design, you save $50 and get back an old part that is prone to additional failures. With modularity you can buy and replace just the part you need and maybe even upgrade while you're at it. Having both would be ideal but isn't always practical due to agreements with chip suppliers etc. Framework is a huge step in the right direction and I don't think being puristic about things is helpful for the right to repair movement.
- tomxor 4y ago
  > board-level repair is hardly worth it Not worth the time and money? or the reduced environmental impact?
- serf 4y ago
  >2) Modularity keeps the cost of individual components so low that board-level repair is hardly worth it. What would Louis charge me? $350 for shipping and time? I don't know where you get your numbers, and Louis isn't the only person in the world with the ability to repair this stuff; you can make up a number so that it seems anti-competitive against the idea of modularity and buying a whole new replacement module -- but let it be said that these repairs can be done fairly cheap with some research and a bit of parts gathering. Cheaper than 350 cheap, in most cases.
  - minhazm 4y ago
    > Logic board repair – $250-$425 (depending on model) From https://www.rossmanngroup.com/liquid-damage/ https://www.rossmanngroup.com/liquid-damage/. Their pricing is fairly competitive, you won't find many places that are significantly cheaper for good quality work. > but let it be said that these repairs can be done fairly cheap with some research and a bit of parts gathering. Cheaper than 350 cheap, in most cases. I don't know about that for component level repairs. Sure you can replace a hard drive, memory, a wifi card or a fan but those can all be done already with the Framework laptop without the detailed schematics. Most people are not knowledgeable enough and even if they were they likely wouldn't feel comfortable doing component level repairs on a motherboard, especially if they have to do any soldering. There's a reason that the vast majority of places computer repair places don't do component level repairs. You need a lot of expertise to do so, and that expertise doesn't come cheap.
    - sigstoat 4y ago
      > There's a reason that the vast majority of places computer repair places don't do component level repairs. You need a lot of expertise to do so, and that expertise doesn't come cheap. you also need tooling. $20 radio shack soldering iron from dad won’t do it for anything that’s worth the labor costs. if you don’t have any of that you’ll be spending $350 to get the bare minimum to practice the job.
  - jknoepfler 4y ago
    $350 is basically free in terms of skilled technician time to solve a problem that requires any non-trivial amount of investigation. You're devaluing the labor and thinking only in terms of the raw materials.
- jkhdigital 4y ago
  I was an aviation electronics technician in the Navy, and I can say from experience that it is very easy to underestimate the time and effort that can go into a component-level repair job. I once troubleshot a faulty RF power meter down to a single transistor, and it was incredibly gratifying to see it working after replacing a sub-$1 part but if I was paid by the hour it would’ve been an unprofitable job for sure.

serf 4y ago

>What makes the framework repairable isn't board-level schematics, its the modularity and access. why not both? no one in their right mind can argue that NDAing and walling documentation aids the repair effort. so.. in other words.. framework is repairable up until the point that it may hurt their bottom-end profits; then you're on your own. maybe they should get into selling board-level components so that they have a financial incentive to act morally and within their projected image of 'right-to-repair' advocacy.

runnerup 4y ago
> maybe they should get into selling board-level components so that they have a financial incentive to act morally and within their projected image of 'right-to-repair' advocacy. That might help if the component packs had a decent loyalty markup. I'm sure repair shops and DIY'ers would love to have access to guaranteed-exact-same-components. Just buying the same number from the datasheet doesn't always guarantee identical electrical characterization across different manufacturers and batches. The primary issue Framework is facing (AIUI) is that if they release the complete board-level schematics, enterprises in Shenzhen will immediately release Framework clones (and sub-module clones) which are part-for-part compatible with the actual Framework laptops. This could undercut their business model at a very high-risk time for their company. They're incredibly capital-constrained and need to meet their pricing/sales targets just to survive (not even considering making their investors happy). Framework is a bit of a "Tech Fad" at the moment, and consumers have historically been known to be incredibly price-conscious, even sometimes demonizing the companies who did the original innovation after they can't meet or beat the clones prices or functionality (I recall this with Arduino). This would make me super wary of releasing the full schematics as well. I would be very suprised if Rossmann Repair was unaware of the NDA. I suspect Framework are being very very magnanimous in their communications here. Rossmann Group probably omitted that context in slightly bad faith to pressure Framework a bit more. That's normal for zealots -- and it is still a symbiotic ecosystem...Rossmann Group laid so much of the foundation needed for Framework to thrive! Also some of Framework's investors (Linus of Linus Tech Tips) were directly responsible for mediating/facilitating/negotiating the current schematic NDA arrangement after listening to Rossmann's critiques as a pre-condition to investing their money, time, and reputation. It would be strange if that story had somehow slipped past Rossmann Group... [Edit: According to others, Louis has a video where he acknowledges the current situation and empathizes with Framework about it, so clearly Rossman is aware. Other people have since mentioned that Framework may be legally unable to release the schematics because they are based on licensed designs from an ODM or chipset/component supplier. In which case, perhaps this video from Rossmann group is designed to help the public put pressure on those upstream IP stakeholders.] I do agree with 'LeonM. Eventually the detailed schematics they provide to repair shops will leak or be stolen or whatever anyways. But I understand Frameworks concerns. There's a need for truly open source hardware. Please support the projects at CrowdSupply[0] ... many of which do have truly open source hardware+software+schematics+PCB Layout Files. And they are nearly all very very small "cottage industry" side-gigs which desperately need the financial enthusiasm and participatory enthusiasm of early adopters in order to thrive. 0: http://crowdsupply.com/ http://crowdsupply.com/

chrisseaton 4y ago

> some purists calling for things 99.9% of customers don't give 2 shits about But isn’t that the whole idea of Framework? If you didn’t care about this stuff you’d buy a MacBook like everyone else.

jjcon 4y ago
No, not at all. The whole idea is modularity, upgradabilty and access. Most technies people know how to swap out an nvme or ram, basically any ifixit level repair. Board level repairs is a whole other ballpark and the need is reduced greatly due to a modular design. People like that desktops are modular, you can easily replace a single part when it breaks or upgrade a part too. Framework is the equivalent for laptops.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

palijer 4y ago

I give a shit what happens to the module I replace. Individual parts go down to the components on the board, there is a distinction between repair and replace.

tintedfireglass 4y ago

Aren't all laptops that aren't macs easily repairable? RAM, SSD, battery, keyboard(but in many laptops the whole top panel has to be replaced), track pad, wifi card, display(framework has the better way only over here). I mean buying a tongfang OR a system 76 is a way better option than going for framework due to its QR codes I don't understand why. I'm not shitting on framework this is just what I've been wanting to ask for so long

spindle 4y ago
I'm not an expert myself, but ifixit says that very few laptops are easily repairable.
maccard 4y ago
> Aren't all laptops that aren't macs easily repairable? No. Many laptops, particularly in the compact category come with soldered RAM and SSDs.

hda2 4y ago

> What makes the framework repairable isn't board-level schematics, its the modularity and access (similar to a desktop). That's just wrong. Modularity and repairability are two very different things. They are not interchangeable.

jjcon 4y ago
And only 4 other laptops have scored as high as framework for repairability since 2010 - and only 1 other from this decade, none of which were as modular or upgradeable after the fact. https://www.ifixit.com/laptop-repairability?sort=score https://www.ifixit.com/laptop-repairability?sort=score
- rasz 4y ago
  Its an aspirational score. Like that Obama Nobel peace prize https://www.latimes.com/projects/la-na-pol-obama-at-war/ https://www.latimes.com/projects/la-na-pol-obama-at-war/ while he was associating people with drones, bystanders included. "The Framework Laptop repair guides are free and easily accessible" .. if you sign the NDA somehow missing from that sentence.

ClumsyPilot 4y ago

> some purists calling for things 99.9% of customers don't give 2 shits about. It is really arrogant to proclaim that 99.9% of consumers share your opinion and financial privilidge of not caring about repairs. Polls consistently show that modt xustomers want repairs and repairability, for laptops >50%, and something like 30% would attempt repairs themselves. We have a real problem with folks like yourself denying that we, people who want repair, even exist. And companies making parts impossible to get hold of. https://yougov.co.uk/topics/technology/articles-reports/2020/05/07/45-smartphone-owners-would-rather-upgrade-repair https://yougov.co.uk/topics/technology/articles-reports/2020... https://yougov.co.uk/topics/consumer/articles-reports/2021/07/01/right-repair-appliances-brits-fix https://yougov.co.uk/topics/consumer/articles-reports/2021/0...

rpdillon 4y ago
Are you talking about soldering on the mainboard, or replacing broken parts? It's hard for me to imagine that 30% of customers want to attempt to solder new parts onto their laptop mainboard, which is what I think this discussion is about. There's more discussion upthread, but work that requires board schematics also requires exceptional tooling, expertise, and time, and is therefore also quite expensive ($250-$425 was the number quoted upthread).
- ClumsyPilot 4y ago
  > work that requires board schematics also requires exceptional tooling, expertise, and time, and is therefore also quite expensive ($250-$425 was the number quoted upthread). Stop thinking about the West, the rest of the world exists. Where do you think your monitor goes when you throw it away because an $1 capacitor has blown? Not into a black hole. Our broken devices get shipped to other countries as e-waste. There cost of labour is $5 and people want to repair that device and keep it going for 40 years. If you want ti say 'i dont care about other countries', then you will have to recycle this shit domestically and pay real money for it's disposal- and then repairing will look different economically
  - jjcon 4y ago