7 ms·

I would keep children away from doctors whose only solution is medication. Much better that they weather through mental issues and come out a normal adult. Medi

I would keep children away from doctors whose only solution is medication. Much better that they weather through mental issues and come out a normal adult. Medication when taken young, which is almost certainly what this would cause, can be very hard to get off of

voisin 4y ago
Perhaps rather than medication we could take a closer look at why children are so anxious in the first place. I envy countries that focus on Gross National Happiness vs GDP.
- willcipriano 4y ago
  > However, studies also estimate that upward of 10% to 21% of children and adolescents struggle with an anxiety disorder If 10% to 21% of kids had some sort of minor physical aliment we wouldn't be content to just treat it and not question why it is happening.
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > If 10% to 21% of kids had some sort of minor physical aliment we wouldn't be content to just treat it and not question why it is happening. It's almost like the article should highlight the need for prevention as well as screening which (checks) it does.
    - b112 4y ago
      Teenagers are undergoing a flood of hormones, with a fast growing intellect (as their brains continue to develop), while their emotions are playing catch up. Teenagers are supposed to be awkward and feel anxiety, amongst endless other emotions in excess. It's a normal part of growing into an adult. Take away the act of learning how to deal with all this new emotion, and emotional intensity, and a human's growth will be stunted.
      - Shared404 4y ago
        I agree with the core of what you are saying. However, space needs to be provided to do that growth safely, and in order to that there would need to be massive changes in Sign-up-for-everything parenting culture, A's-or-die school culture, and a myriad of other things in order for this to work. As it is, this culture takes the fire and throws gasoline on it, preventing healthy growth. Even outside of that, there is a balance to be struck - while some amount of anxiety/awkwardness is expected, if it leads to suicidal thoughts, self harm, lashing out at others, or other destructive behavior, it has gone to far.
      - dragonwriter 4y ago
        > Teenagers are undergoing a flood of hormones Most children are not teenagers. > Teenagers are supposed to be awkward and feel anxiety Diagnosable anxiety is not “feeling anxiety” in the common sense any more than diagnosable depression is “feeling sad”. > Take away the act of learning how to deal with all this new emotion No one, ever, has argued for that. Where treatment is required for childhood anxiety, talk therapy — often CBT — seems to me the first-line treatment. Which is exactly learning how to recognize and deal with problematic feelings.
- misslibby 4y ago
  A huge number thinks they will die because of global warming. Relentless propaganda aimed at kids takes its toll.
  - legalcorrection 4y ago
    Yeah it’s jarring when you see what teenagers post online about this. They really believe that they and their friends are going to drop dead from climate change.
    - gedy 4y ago
      Reminds me of high school in the cold war: "Why bother? The bombs are coming any day!"
      - misslibby 4y ago
        That is why I disapprove of all the fear-mongering. I lived through that as a teen, and it was very depressing. I honestly thought I would never see my 30ieth birthday, either because of nukes or because of the hole in the ozone layer.
    - Shared404 4y ago
      Given the number of "Once in a lifetime events" I as an early 20 year old have lived through, I entirely understand the feeling of everything is going to collapse. The house is made of cards, and there are people running around trying collect more cards than everyone else - even when those are at the base. Meanwhile, someones turned up the AC at one end of the house and the heater at the other, and we've got weird air currents blowing every which way.
      - legalcorrection 4y ago
        Shared404 4y ago
- curuinor 4y ago
  thats just bhutan bhutan's an absolute autocratic kingdom, it's just that the king is oxford-educated and does a lot of the usual enlightened monarchy stuff and seems a decent enough man. if his son is a little shit or he gets a stroke or something, that all goes down the toilet
  - curuinor 4y ago
    as one of the sibling comments noted, the king's father was kinda a little shit too, so you really don't know on that rolling of the dice, basically
- corazortez 4y ago
  The only country that focuses on GNH is Bhutan. The same country which exiled an entire ethnicity constituting 20% of its population in the 1990s. [1] UN happiness report ranks Bhutan at 97th, Finland being first and the US at 17.[2] Bhutan’s GNH campaign is a clever marketing strategy by an autocratic government to boost its tourism revenue (main source of income), cover up its frequent human right violations, and abject poverty of the common people all at the same time. Romanticising Bhutan is a new form of orientialism. 1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhutanese_refugees https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhutanese_refugees 2. https://worldhappiness.report/ed/2022/happiness-benevolence-and-trust-during-covid-19-and-beyond/#ranking-of-happiness-2019-2021 https://worldhappiness.report/ed/2022/happiness-benevolence-...
  - voisin 4y ago
    I didn’t realize only Bhutan had this metric. I was referring to Scandinavian countries which seem to be the context I’ve heard it in, but must be mistaken. In any event, I envy the concept and wish more countries adopted it.
    - mardifoufs 4y ago
      You might have a very skewed view of those countries. Things happen there too, you just don't hear about it. Policies proposals that would draw bipartisan condemnation in the US and be unanimously rejected across the aisle might not even get any meaningful opposition in the "happy nordics". Here's a very troubling example that is happening right now: Denmark is currently deporting back to syria all of its syrian refugees. They revoked their residency almost overnight and declared that Syria is now safe even if the Civil war is far from over. Considering that the groups that those refugees originally escaped from are still in power (whether it's Assad or the islamists), it basically means certain death for a lot of them (even those lucky enough to avoid reprisals will probably end up forcibly conscripted). They also argue that Damascus is completely safe for refugees who specifically escaped the syrian government security services (gestapo lite)... because that same government is now fully in control and has pacified the entire region. >In 2019, the Danish prime minister declared that Denmark wanted ‘zero asylum seekers’. That was a really strong signal* >That's really good news," Mr Tesfaye said in February. "Corona, of course, plays a role, but I think first and foremost, it's because of our strict foreign policy. Many of those who come here do not need protection at all." >The government has set a target of zero, arguing that the money saved can go towards welfare[0] The most troubling part is that all of this is happening under a "moderate" left wing government with pretty wide support and little to no actual backlash. So yeah, I'd be hesitant to use nordic countries as a model for everything. It's a lot of tradeoffs and the welfare state can be sweet for some, but I know that personally as a muslim I'd much rather live elsewhere
- WalterBright 4y ago
  The US doesn't do child labor anymore. Kids often don't even have their first job until their twenties.
  - stefantalpalaru 4y ago
dragonwriter 4y ago
> I would keep children away from doctors whose only solution is medication. Not sure how that's relevant, neither the article’s nor the more general modern approach is that the “only solution is medication”.
elil17 4y ago
Medication is generally not the first treatment option for anxiety. Psychiatrists probably overprescribe some medications for some disorders but there are a lot of non-chemical treatment options which are super effective for kids with anxiety. I was therapists for anxiety as a kid. My parents were never recommended meds but I did learn a bunch of skills to help me be more patient and calm.
slg 4y ago
From the article: >Nearly 80% of chronic mental health conditions emerge in childhood "Normal adult" is relative. Just because a prior generation had to "weather through mental issues" doesn't mean the next one should too. I also don't know where you got the "doctors whose only solution is medication" idea from. You can click through to the survey linked in the article. Here is the high level summary: > In particular, CBT [Cognitive Behavioral Therapy] and exposure-based therapy continue to be the most well-established treatments for child and adolescent anxiety. These findings suggest that the class of interventions comprising CBT and exposure-based interventions are supported by a strong and diverse literature base and that clinicians selecting a first-line intervention for youth anxiety might search here first. Within the CBT and exposure-based interventions reviewed here, the treatment protocol that best meets a given client's presentation will likely be based upon multiple unique considerations such as youth and family characteristics, service setting, and treatment format. Nothing about medication in there.
- anm89 4y ago
  I'm sorry but this just isn't correct. There is a clear structural bias towards medicating everyone who ends up touching the US mental health care system.
  - elteto 4y ago
    Your comment was flagged [dead] for some reason, but I can't see why. I vouched for it.
alatkins 4y ago
> Much better that they weather through mental issues and come out a normal adult. I once held this view, which changed when I watched my 8yo daughter, who was showing some _very_ troubling anxiety-related behaviors, be almost immediately helped when she was diagnosed with ADHD+Aspergers and given ADHD meds. We'd previously tried child therapists and pretty much everything else under the sun. Do I wish that she didn't need medication? Of course. But for her the benefit has far outweighed the downsides, at least so far.
- juve1996 4y ago
  Yep, I tell most people to avoid the "overdiagnosis" alarmism. Go to your doctor, ask questions, get second opinions. Don't trust random commenters on the internet. I wish I had my ADD treated much sooner. Some disorders are very treatable. Ask for non-drug options.
kurikuri 4y ago
It’s tricky when it comes to something like ADHD. Researchers in the field (Russell Barkley comes to mind), describe ADHD as a developmental disorder, with stunting that may be lifelong. Many problems associated with the slower executive control development are alleviated by starting medication early and building behaviors to manage time blindness and inattention. Also, in terms of effect size, there isn’t a better change in expected outcome for any medication/therapy in psychiatric care than using stimulants to treat ADHD. The pendulum of public opinion on stimulant use with ADHD treatment has always been too fast, resulting in periods of over and under diagnosis. The lifelong negative effect of being treated for ADHD when unnecessary is much less than being undiagnosed, but the delay in the change of outcome makes it difficult to see. People with untreated ADHD tend to perform worse in _every_ aspect of life, from relationship maintenance, financial stability, professional and academic development, and personal happiness. While it is wrong to simply give a patient the meds without therapy and observation, it is much worse to not do so when the medication is needed.

voisin 4y ago

Perhaps rather than medication we could take a closer look at why children are so anxious in the first place. I envy countries that focus on Gross National Happiness vs GDP.

willcipriano 4y ago
> However, studies also estimate that upward of 10% to 21% of children and adolescents struggle with an anxiety disorder If 10% to 21% of kids had some sort of minor physical aliment we wouldn't be content to just treat it and not question why it is happening.
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > If 10% to 21% of kids had some sort of minor physical aliment we wouldn't be content to just treat it and not question why it is happening. It's almost like the article should highlight the need for prevention as well as screening which (checks) it does.
  - b112 4y ago
    Teenagers are undergoing a flood of hormones, with a fast growing intellect (as their brains continue to develop), while their emotions are playing catch up. Teenagers are supposed to be awkward and feel anxiety, amongst endless other emotions in excess. It's a normal part of growing into an adult. Take away the act of learning how to deal with all this new emotion, and emotional intensity, and a human's growth will be stunted.
    - Shared404 4y ago
      I agree with the core of what you are saying. However, space needs to be provided to do that growth safely, and in order to that there would need to be massive changes in Sign-up-for-everything parenting culture, A's-or-die school culture, and a myriad of other things in order for this to work. As it is, this culture takes the fire and throws gasoline on it, preventing healthy growth. Even outside of that, there is a balance to be struck - while some amount of anxiety/awkwardness is expected, if it leads to suicidal thoughts, self harm, lashing out at others, or other destructive behavior, it has gone to far.
    - dragonwriter 4y ago
      > Teenagers are undergoing a flood of hormones Most children are not teenagers. > Teenagers are supposed to be awkward and feel anxiety Diagnosable anxiety is not “feeling anxiety” in the common sense any more than diagnosable depression is “feeling sad”. > Take away the act of learning how to deal with all this new emotion No one, ever, has argued for that. Where treatment is required for childhood anxiety, talk therapy — often CBT — seems to me the first-line treatment. Which is exactly learning how to recognize and deal with problematic feelings.
misslibby 4y ago
A huge number thinks they will die because of global warming. Relentless propaganda aimed at kids takes its toll.
- legalcorrection 4y ago
  Yeah it’s jarring when you see what teenagers post online about this. They really believe that they and their friends are going to drop dead from climate change.
  - gedy 4y ago
    Reminds me of high school in the cold war: "Why bother? The bombs are coming any day!"
    - misslibby 4y ago
      That is why I disapprove of all the fear-mongering. I lived through that as a teen, and it was very depressing. I honestly thought I would never see my 30ieth birthday, either because of nukes or because of the hole in the ozone layer.
  - Shared404 4y ago
    Given the number of "Once in a lifetime events" I as an early 20 year old have lived through, I entirely understand the feeling of everything is going to collapse. The house is made of cards, and there are people running around trying collect more cards than everyone else - even when those are at the base. Meanwhile, someones turned up the AC at one end of the house and the heater at the other, and we've got weird air currents blowing every which way.
    - legalcorrection 4y ago
      - Shared404 4y ago
curuinor 4y ago
thats just bhutan bhutan's an absolute autocratic kingdom, it's just that the king is oxford-educated and does a lot of the usual enlightened monarchy stuff and seems a decent enough man. if his son is a little shit or he gets a stroke or something, that all goes down the toilet
- curuinor 4y ago
  as one of the sibling comments noted, the king's father was kinda a little shit too, so you really don't know on that rolling of the dice, basically
corazortez 4y ago
The only country that focuses on GNH is Bhutan. The same country which exiled an entire ethnicity constituting 20% of its population in the 1990s. [1] UN happiness report ranks Bhutan at 97th, Finland being first and the US at 17.[2] Bhutan’s GNH campaign is a clever marketing strategy by an autocratic government to boost its tourism revenue (main source of income), cover up its frequent human right violations, and abject poverty of the common people all at the same time. Romanticising Bhutan is a new form of orientialism. 1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhutanese_refugees https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhutanese_refugees 2. https://worldhappiness.report/ed/2022/happiness-benevolence-and-trust-during-covid-19-and-beyond/#ranking-of-happiness-2019-2021 https://worldhappiness.report/ed/2022/happiness-benevolence-...
- voisin 4y ago
  I didn’t realize only Bhutan had this metric. I was referring to Scandinavian countries which seem to be the context I’ve heard it in, but must be mistaken. In any event, I envy the concept and wish more countries adopted it.
  - mardifoufs 4y ago
    You might have a very skewed view of those countries. Things happen there too, you just don't hear about it. Policies proposals that would draw bipartisan condemnation in the US and be unanimously rejected across the aisle might not even get any meaningful opposition in the "happy nordics". Here's a very troubling example that is happening right now: Denmark is currently deporting back to syria all of its syrian refugees. They revoked their residency almost overnight and declared that Syria is now safe even if the Civil war is far from over. Considering that the groups that those refugees originally escaped from are still in power (whether it's Assad or the islamists), it basically means certain death for a lot of them (even those lucky enough to avoid reprisals will probably end up forcibly conscripted). They also argue that Damascus is completely safe for refugees who specifically escaped the syrian government security services (gestapo lite)... because that same government is now fully in control and has pacified the entire region. >In 2019, the Danish prime minister declared that Denmark wanted ‘zero asylum seekers’. That was a really strong signal* >That's really good news," Mr Tesfaye said in February. "Corona, of course, plays a role, but I think first and foremost, it's because of our strict foreign policy. Many of those who come here do not need protection at all." >The government has set a target of zero, arguing that the money saved can go towards welfare[0] The most troubling part is that all of this is happening under a "moderate" left wing government with pretty wide support and little to no actual backlash. So yeah, I'd be hesitant to use nordic countries as a model for everything. It's a lot of tradeoffs and the welfare state can be sweet for some, but I know that personally as a muslim I'd much rather live elsewhere
WalterBright 4y ago
The US doesn't do child labor anymore. Kids often don't even have their first job until their twenties.
- stefantalpalaru 4y ago

dragonwriter 4y ago

> I would keep children away from doctors whose only solution is medication. Not sure how that's relevant, neither the article’s nor the more general modern approach is that the “only solution is medication”.

elil17 4y ago

Medication is generally not the first treatment option for anxiety. Psychiatrists probably overprescribe some medications for some disorders but there are a lot of non-chemical treatment options which are super effective for kids with anxiety. I was therapists for anxiety as a kid. My parents were never recommended meds but I did learn a bunch of skills to help me be more patient and calm.

slg 4y ago

From the article: >Nearly 80% of chronic mental health conditions emerge in childhood "Normal adult" is relative. Just because a prior generation had to "weather through mental issues" doesn't mean the next one should too. I also don't know where you got the "doctors whose only solution is medication" idea from. You can click through to the survey linked in the article. Here is the high level summary: > In particular, CBT [Cognitive Behavioral Therapy] and exposure-based therapy continue to be the most well-established treatments for child and adolescent anxiety. These findings suggest that the class of interventions comprising CBT and exposure-based interventions are supported by a strong and diverse literature base and that clinicians selecting a first-line intervention for youth anxiety might search here first. Within the CBT and exposure-based interventions reviewed here, the treatment protocol that best meets a given client's presentation will likely be based upon multiple unique considerations such as youth and family characteristics, service setting, and treatment format. Nothing about medication in there.

anm89 4y ago
I'm sorry but this just isn't correct. There is a clear structural bias towards medicating everyone who ends up touching the US mental health care system.
- elteto 4y ago
  Your comment was flagged [dead] for some reason, but I can't see why. I vouched for it.

alatkins 4y ago

> Much better that they weather through mental issues and come out a normal adult. I once held this view, which changed when I watched my 8yo daughter, who was showing some _very_ troubling anxiety-related behaviors, be almost immediately helped when she was diagnosed with ADHD+Aspergers and given ADHD meds. We'd previously tried child therapists and pretty much everything else under the sun. Do I wish that she didn't need medication? Of course. But for her the benefit has far outweighed the downsides, at least so far.

juve1996 4y ago
Yep, I tell most people to avoid the "overdiagnosis" alarmism. Go to your doctor, ask questions, get second opinions. Don't trust random commenters on the internet. I wish I had my ADD treated much sooner. Some disorders are very treatable. Ask for non-drug options.

kurikuri 4y ago

It’s tricky when it comes to something like ADHD. Researchers in the field (Russell Barkley comes to mind), describe ADHD as a developmental disorder, with stunting that may be lifelong. Many problems associated with the slower executive control development are alleviated by starting medication early and building behaviors to manage time blindness and inattention. Also, in terms of effect size, there isn’t a better change in expected outcome for any medication/therapy in psychiatric care than using stimulants to treat ADHD. The pendulum of public opinion on stimulant use with ADHD treatment has always been too fast, resulting in periods of over and under diagnosis. The lifelong negative effect of being treated for ADHD when unnecessary is much less than being undiagnosed, but the delay in the change of outcome makes it difficult to see. People with untreated ADHD tend to perform worse in _every_ aspect of life, from relationship maintenance, financial stability, professional and academic development, and personal happiness. While it is wrong to simply give a patient the meds without therapy and observation, it is much worse to not do so when the medication is needed.