4 ms·

> we should work as an international society, to PREVENT wars, to RESOLVE refugee crises, with everyone listening to the others' security concerns, and pitching

> we should work as an international society, to PREVENT wars, to RESOLVE refugee crises, with everyone listening to the others' security concerns, and pitching in. > Whataboutism itself is valuable because we need to clean up our double standards and solve the core of systemic issues, together and everywhere. I can't tell if you're idealistic or if you're using an idealistic tone pedagogically. In the political situations you describe the hypocrisy you are highlighting disappears when you consider them from the perspective of state entities. Arguing about the moral characterisations colouring the propaganda of nation-states is bikeshedding. There is an Atlantic alliance working to increase costs for Russia in order to change China's calculus on Taiwan, which is itself only relevant because it is where 92% of advanced semiconductor manufacturing takes place. That's it, no-one important actually cares about whether it's appropriate to invade other countries, where the 'rightful clay' of your ethnonationalist group is, etc. If Russia made 92% of the world's semiconductors my greengrocer wouldn't have a blue-and-yellow flag in his window. Simple as. If we want to have productive discussions about geopolitics we should talk about the /reasons/ of national interest, not the /excuses/ of bumper-sticker memetics.

EGreg 4y ago
I would be very surprised to find that the vast majority of people with Ukrainian flags are actually worried about semiconductors from Taiwan. There is already a chip shortage. Also Israel is also an important player in the semiconductor industry, but lots of people in USA and Europe are fixated on it just as much as Russophobes have been fixated on Russia, and so on. https://thediplomat.com/2020/11/israeli-semiconductors-and-the-us-china-tech-war/ https://thediplomat.com/2020/11/israeli-semiconductors-and-t... I think you’re talking about the calculus of various nations about necessary resources. Well, European politicians seem to be willing to “take one for the team” (by which I mean, volunteering the lower and middle class among their population to experience hardship, not the politicians themselves) by quickly trying to phase out Russian oil and eventually gas. Ukrainian officials complained they aren’t doing it fast enough. But in reality the pandemic lockdowns and now the war has caused fossil fuels to finally stop being competitive with alternative energy, and this is likely to be the biggest and fastest drawdown of fossil fuel usage since 2020 when it dropped overnight and barrels of oil had negative prices. My point is that fossil fuels are quite instrumental to the modern European economy but they’re willing to experience shortages in order to starve Russia of resources to fund its war.
- AftHurrahWinch 4y ago
  > in order to starve Russia of resources to fund its war. Russia is Mexico with missiles. Atlantic nations are engaging in the conflict in order to constrain and deter China, the rising hegemon. > I would be very surprised to find that the vast majority of people with Ukrainian flags are actually worried about semiconductors from Taiwan. The vast majority of people get their news from entertainers reassuring them that their prior assumptions are correct, relevant, and moral.
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > Atlantic nations are engaging in the conflict in order to constrain and deter China, the rising hegemon. No, Atlantic nations are engaging in the conflict (despite the fact that doing so makes it harder to contain China—which is why China is also engaging in the conflict, in a lower-key way) because Russia—which may be “Mexico“ in terms of economy but with nuclear weapons, a giant stockpile of conventional weapons, a better relationship between the government and organized crime, and a more aggressive attitude—immediately borders on and directly threatens members of the Atlantic alliance.
    - AftHurrahWinch 4y ago
      In 2020, Ukraine was the poorest country in Europe with a GNI of $3,570, slightly lower than Gaza or El Salvador. Russia looked at its own "aggressive attitude" and "giant stockpile of conventional weapons" and picked the weakest, easiest target they could find after eight years of ground work in Donbas. If your theory is correct, Russia threatened the Atlantic alliance who reacted by... doubling the economic power of their terrifying neighbor with Nord Stream. Then Russia used those resources to occupy Donbas and Crimea, so the Atlantic states reacted decisively by... starting construction on Nord Stream 2. If the Atlantic alliance worried about Russia they would have prioritized relations with petrostates that are even less of a threat. Or, perhaps the Atlantic states aren't genuinely afraid of Russia.
      - dragonwriter 4y ago

EGreg 4y ago

I would be very surprised to find that the vast majority of people with Ukrainian flags are actually worried about semiconductors from Taiwan. There is already a chip shortage. Also Israel is also an important player in the semiconductor industry, but lots of people in USA and Europe are fixated on it just as much as Russophobes have been fixated on Russia, and so on. https://thediplomat.com/2020/11/israeli-semiconductors-and-the-us-china-tech-war/ https://thediplomat.com/2020/11/israeli-semiconductors-and-t... I think you’re talking about the calculus of various nations about necessary resources. Well, European politicians seem to be willing to “take one for the team” (by which I mean, volunteering the lower and middle class among their population to experience hardship, not the politicians themselves) by quickly trying to phase out Russian oil and eventually gas. Ukrainian officials complained they aren’t doing it fast enough. But in reality the pandemic lockdowns and now the war has caused fossil fuels to finally stop being competitive with alternative energy, and this is likely to be the biggest and fastest drawdown of fossil fuel usage since 2020 when it dropped overnight and barrels of oil had negative prices. My point is that fossil fuels are quite instrumental to the modern European economy but they’re willing to experience shortages in order to starve Russia of resources to fund its war.

AftHurrahWinch 4y ago
> in order to starve Russia of resources to fund its war. Russia is Mexico with missiles. Atlantic nations are engaging in the conflict in order to constrain and deter China, the rising hegemon. > I would be very surprised to find that the vast majority of people with Ukrainian flags are actually worried about semiconductors from Taiwan. The vast majority of people get their news from entertainers reassuring them that their prior assumptions are correct, relevant, and moral.
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > Atlantic nations are engaging in the conflict in order to constrain and deter China, the rising hegemon. No, Atlantic nations are engaging in the conflict (despite the fact that doing so makes it harder to contain China—which is why China is also engaging in the conflict, in a lower-key way) because Russia—which may be “Mexico“ in terms of economy but with nuclear weapons, a giant stockpile of conventional weapons, a better relationship between the government and organized crime, and a more aggressive attitude—immediately borders on and directly threatens members of the Atlantic alliance.
  - AftHurrahWinch 4y ago
    In 2020, Ukraine was the poorest country in Europe with a GNI of $3,570, slightly lower than Gaza or El Salvador. Russia looked at its own "aggressive attitude" and "giant stockpile of conventional weapons" and picked the weakest, easiest target they could find after eight years of ground work in Donbas. If your theory is correct, Russia threatened the Atlantic alliance who reacted by... doubling the economic power of their terrifying neighbor with Nord Stream. Then Russia used those resources to occupy Donbas and Crimea, so the Atlantic states reacted decisively by... starting construction on Nord Stream 2. If the Atlantic alliance worried about Russia they would have prioritized relations with petrostates that are even less of a threat. Or, perhaps the Atlantic states aren't genuinely afraid of Russia.
    - dragonwriter 4y ago