4 ms·

>In Northern Europe where I live a primary school teacher makes above $50k a year. Where do you live? Because that's less than a teacher makes in the US, lol.

by robswc 4y ago

>In Northern Europe where I live a primary school teacher makes above $50k a year. Where do you live? Because that's less than a teacher makes in the US, lol. >No, people fall for the propaganda of American exceptionalism, and they haven't done the actual math to see if they actually would have more or less money moving to another country. So a greater % of Europeans vs Americans are just ignorant? I don't honestly believe that. >But you cannot just compare salary numbers like that, you have to do a full budget with real numbers and compare how much you're left with each month after you've paid all expenses. So, realistically, what is someone that is paid $30-40k left with each month? >Health insurance is $0 here. An average a parent here will have maybe 15 days of my-child-is-sick and 5 days of I'm-sick per year, in addition to 25 days of vacation, plus Christmas and Easter and other public holidays combining to 10 days on average, so 55 days total of paid leave per year for a parent with small children. And when the child was born, the mother received 9 months of paid maternity leave while the father got 3 months of paid leave. And again, Europeans are very willing to give these up if it means a higher salary/ability to work in the US. >Did you know that the average total monthly payment for a house in the Bay Area is $5300? No, because I don't live in the Bay Area and I find anyone that does to be insane... but the salaries mostly scale to reflect that. The _average_ salary for the bay area for SDE is $230k. That's more than enough to cover that cost. A lot of people just rent or get an apartment to build wealth and then move somewhere else though. Again, all the stuff you're saying is great and if that's your choice all the power to you. I don't see how any of that negates the simple fact that Europeans try very hard to get SDE jobs in the US. The US is incredibly huge and diverse. You can find almost any type of living situation you want. No matter how you spin it, its hard to beat SDE opportunities in the US. Only thing I can think of is getting a job with an American company in Europe to have the "best of both worlds" but even then, not sure you'll find too many ppl willing to take it.

semi-extrinsic 4y ago
So you're saying $30-$40k for SDE in Spain, the internet seems to say $10k above that, but never mind. My knowledge is from Northern Europe, so I'm basing my math on that. So in our case, the average SDE salary here is $98k, and let's say your partner is a teacher, so a combined gross salary of $150k/yr for the family with small children, let's say living in the capital (most expensive). Then statistically you have more income than 80% of couples with small children living there, so already you know you're well off. After tax you're taking home about $8000 per month. We already said you're spending $2600 on your nice house. Let's say you have two kids, one electric car and one petrol car. Then the official reference budget published by the state says you're spending $3400 a month on food, clothing, the cars, public transport, furniture, childcare, most of the necessary expenses. We are missing a couple of things like insurance, utilities etc., which is about $500 a month. So you're left with something like $1000 to $1500 a month for discretionary spending. And you have basically no commute and live in a perfectly safe place with free healthcare. As for "Europeans try very hard to get jobs in the US" - that is not supported by the data. By a very large margin the people immigrating to the US are from Asia, South America and Africa. The first European country on the list is the UK in 22nd place with 10k people per year. The next is Poland and Germany with about 5k people each, and software devs is obviously just a tiny fraction of that. Meanwhile Germany plus the UK are home to an estimated total of 1.6 million software developers, so the percentage of devs emigrating is obviously extremely, ridiculously small.
- robswc 4y ago
  >So you're saying $30-$40k for SDE in Spain, the internet seems to say $10k above that, but never mind. My knowledge is from Northern Europe, so I'm basing my math on that. Those were the numbers I found when looking into an extended stay in Spain. Seems to line up with the first result on the internet (google). https://www.payscale.com/research/ES/Job=Software_Engineer/Salary https://www.payscale.com/research/ES/Job=Software_Engineer/S... Where are you getting your numbers? Here are mine: https://www.levels.fyi/Salaries/Software-Engineer/San-Francisco-Bay-Area/ https://www.levels.fyi/Salaries/Software-Engineer/San-Franci... >So in our case, the average SDE salary here is $98k Where is "here" ? At this point we might as well be comparing states with such an insane variability of nearly double the salary (if your numbers are correct). We're flipping between Europe and your country, lol >So you're left with something like $1000 to $1500 a month for discretionary spending. And you have basically no commute and live in a perfectly safe place with free healthcare. Well, that's exactly my point. Using your same scenario, an average SDE in the "most expensive city" makes $230k. After 3-5 years its close to $300k. If their spouse is a teacher, they make ~65k. That's easily 2-2.5x the salary right there. Again though, while the bay area is popular, its not for everyone and there's thousands of remote jobs that pay $130k+, allowing you to live anywhere. >As for "Europeans try very hard to get jobs in the US" - that is not supported by the data I never said most foreign devs are coming from Europe, just that often Europeans have and continue to move to the US in pursuit of better SDE opportunities. The opposite can't be said.

by robswc 4y ago

semi-extrinsic 4y ago

So you're saying $30-$40k for SDE in Spain, the internet seems to say $10k above that, but never mind. My knowledge is from Northern Europe, so I'm basing my math on that. So in our case, the average SDE salary here is $98k, and let's say your partner is a teacher, so a combined gross salary of $150k/yr for the family with small children, let's say living in the capital (most expensive). Then statistically you have more income than 80% of couples with small children living there, so already you know you're well off. After tax you're taking home about $8000 per month. We already said you're spending $2600 on your nice house. Let's say you have two kids, one electric car and one petrol car. Then the official reference budget published by the state says you're spending $3400 a month on food, clothing, the cars, public transport, furniture, childcare, most of the necessary expenses. We are missing a couple of things like insurance, utilities etc., which is about $500 a month. So you're left with something like $1000 to $1500 a month for discretionary spending. And you have basically no commute and live in a perfectly safe place with free healthcare. As for "Europeans try very hard to get jobs in the US" - that is not supported by the data. By a very large margin the people immigrating to the US are from Asia, South America and Africa. The first European country on the list is the UK in 22nd place with 10k people per year. The next is Poland and Germany with about 5k people each, and software devs is obviously just a tiny fraction of that. Meanwhile Germany plus the UK are home to an estimated total of 1.6 million software developers, so the percentage of devs emigrating is obviously extremely, ridiculously small.

robswc 4y ago
>So you're saying $30-$40k for SDE in Spain, the internet seems to say $10k above that, but never mind. My knowledge is from Northern Europe, so I'm basing my math on that. Those were the numbers I found when looking into an extended stay in Spain. Seems to line up with the first result on the internet (google). https://www.payscale.com/research/ES/Job=Software_Engineer/Salary https://www.payscale.com/research/ES/Job=Software_Engineer/S... Where are you getting your numbers? Here are mine: https://www.levels.fyi/Salaries/Software-Engineer/San-Francisco-Bay-Area/ https://www.levels.fyi/Salaries/Software-Engineer/San-Franci... >So in our case, the average SDE salary here is $98k Where is "here" ? At this point we might as well be comparing states with such an insane variability of nearly double the salary (if your numbers are correct). We're flipping between Europe and your country, lol >So you're left with something like $1000 to $1500 a month for discretionary spending. And you have basically no commute and live in a perfectly safe place with free healthcare. Well, that's exactly my point. Using your same scenario, an average SDE in the "most expensive city" makes $230k. After 3-5 years its close to $300k. If their spouse is a teacher, they make ~65k. That's easily 2-2.5x the salary right there. Again though, while the bay area is popular, its not for everyone and there's thousands of remote jobs that pay $130k+, allowing you to live anywhere. >As for "Europeans try very hard to get jobs in the US" - that is not supported by the data I never said most foreign devs are coming from Europe, just that often Europeans have and continue to move to the US in pursuit of better SDE opportunities. The opposite can't be said.