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What's going to be the real stickler when this finally comes to a courtroom showdown is that Google and Apple are competitors in this space. First, they let th

by mabbo 4y ago

What's going to be the real stickler when this finally comes to a courtroom showdown is that Google and Apple are competitors in this space. First, they let their competitors onto their platform without charging extortionate fees. They wait for them to become large and well-used on the platform. Then they change the fee structure so that it's no longer profitable for their competitors to compete on the platform at all. This leads to customers switching apps for their needs. It's abuse of market power from being the marketplace/platform owner. As I always say: a market or platform owner/operator should not be allowed to also be a competitor within it. The incentives get messed up and abuse will always follow.

thatguy0900 4y ago
The incentives dont always get messed up. Every grocery store has their own branded items, they even usually get special shelf placement and sales. Its only the greed of these tech companies that makes it an issue by really going hard on abusing their position
- plonk 4y ago
  French producers complain of unfair negotiations with large supermarket corporations. Multinationals can win against distributors, but it's much harder for smaller local farms.
- Zak 4y ago
  Greedy doesn't make sense as a criticism of individual for-profit corporations any more than predatory makes sense as a criticism of a cat. The problem in this case isn't that Google and Apple are greedy; the problem is that there aren't effective competitive forces in their markets to keep them in check.
- moron4hire 4y ago
  That's probably not the best example. There are a lot of brands on the shelves, but very, very few companies. The grocery chains don't produce those items. Store-brand stuff is more of a white-labeling situation with the goal of capturing more of the price curve. It's pretty much a single producer for all the stuff, occasionally with slight variations so people don't catch wise. If you were to start an independent producer, you'd have a very hard time finding shelf space.
- mabbo 4y ago
  That example is always brought up, but honestly? I don't think that's a fair thing either. I think that particular form of abuse is mild enough and has existed for long enough that we don't even think about it. A law that stops tech companies from this abuse should also stop grocery stores from doing the same thing.
  - akersten 4y ago
    I would really not like to double my grocery bill by being excluded from buying the store brand items. I actually like Great Value because it's half the price, same as Amazon Basics. I think they are both fine things to exist.
    - mabbo 4y ago
      The best way to keep prices low is strong competition. Amazon Basics undercuts competitors by having no cost to sell on the Amazon marketplace. Then once the competitor they're imitating is out of business, they can raise prices, and you wind up paying more. I think it would be perfectly fine if the Basics brand existed as an independent company and paid the same fees as everyone else. But real competitors can't sell at a loss indefinitely just to win over the whole market.
      - sithadmin 4y ago
        >Amazon Basics undercuts competitors by having no cost to sell on the Amazon marketplace. Amazon branded products have an advantage through access to analytics, not cost of doing business. Amazon issues internal chargebacks to subsidiaries and business units for use of their platforms.
        supercheetah 4y ago
        That's still an unfair advantage to Amazon Basics that competitors can't get.
        mabbo 4y ago
- notatoad 4y ago
  grocery stores aren't a marketplace, they're a store. they purchase product from suppliers, and re-sell it. they're making the purchase and taking on the risk of stocking the competitor's product. if they can't sell that product, they're the ones taking a loss, not the supplier (generally speaking, some vendors get better terms than others). the problem with a marketplace is that the marketplace isn't taking on any of the risk. google is just getting a cut of sales, so their incentive is to sell the product where they get the biggest cut and there's no self-interest in them treating anybody else fairly.
  - ajb 4y ago
    Your grandad's grocery store worked that way, but modern retailers are actually pay to play. They are more like a marketplace than you'd think. Ever wondered why big stores have meters of just Coke and Pepsi, but corner shops have a few each of dozens of brands of drink? it's because only the big brands can afford to buy in. The retailers have market power and they use it to divest cost and risk onto the suppliers.
    - krrrh 4y ago
      Getting a new product into a grocery chain also often involves expenses beyond buying shelf space like paying fees setting up sample tables. There are some beloved brands that can get away with not paying to play. In Canada Hawkins Cheezies made it a badge of honour that it was usually on the bottom shelf at gas stations because they had a policy of not paying for shelf placement.
antihero 4y ago
I wonder how Amazon feel about someone doing that.
- gpt5 4y ago
  The power Amazon has over the retail market is no where close to what Google & Apple together have over the mobile market.
  - ajsnigrutin 4y ago
    But amazon has enough power, enough to win and lose, to be able to actually bring google and apple to court for that.
- musicale 4y ago
  Last I checked they have their own alternate app store which is used on Fire devices.
dukeofdoom 4y ago
If people knew that twitter and YouTube would censor so much, they would have not joined. It's a kind of a fraud too. Become market leader with open standards, destroying competition,than start censoring and try to sway elections.
- rchaud 4y ago
  What does Twitter have to do with this? Twitter was never a market leader in the way Google and Apple are. It was a distant 3rd or 4th behind FB, IG and Snap.
- 9935c101ab17a66 4y ago
  You realize that most people don’t really have a problem (or even think about) twitter/YouTube censorship right? You also realize that people sign in the thousands for these services every day? Also, which elections did YouTube and twitter sway? Provide proof. Tbh, a direct connection between trumps addled brain and the internet through twitter has a much larger negative impact on his electability than any kind of “deplatforming”. Twitter did him a favour.
  - dukeofdoom 4y ago
    Hunter Biden's story was purposely censored and even a mainstream newspapers account suspended for reporting on it. Just one example. Trumps account suspended too. Accounts suspended for reporting on the lab theory of the virus. Many accounts suspended that questioned the safety or efficiency of the vaccine. Rember they purposely told a lie that it was 95% efficient. Informed consent is opposite of being lied to. Your reality is carefully constructed by billionaires that don't have your best interest in mind or ideologues with claims of doing things for the geater good. Ideologies are always flawed. The world is too complex to fit into their narrow solutions. Hence why you should care more about censorship. Those that set out to get you to believe lies through media monopolies have gone on to kill millions in the past.
toxik 4y ago
> a market or platform owner/operator should not be allowed to also be a competitor within it This problem is somewhat analogous to regulatory capture, you dominate a market so totally you get to set the rules for everyone else too. There is no doubt in my mind that these rules should be set by democratically elected persons. As it is now, we are basically letting capitalist corporations get away with greediness on a scale of literal sea piracy. What’s more, we’re not protecting our culture, our children, or our values anymore because of this nonchalant laissez-faire attitude to what people STILL think is an industry in its infancy. WAKE UP, these people are on the brink of upending the very foundations of democratic society with their antivax-spewing clickbait engagement treadmills. Rant over.
musicale 4y ago
> a market or platform owner/operator should not be allowed to also be a competitor within it. The incentives get messed up and abuse will always follow Isn't that how almost every digital game store works?
scarface74 4y ago
Apple stopped allowing apps from selling digital goods in app back in 2011. Kindle is still more popular than iBooks. It doesn’t hurt that Amazon is either number one or number two as far as having the number of credit cards on file. Apple is the other one. People don’t want to enter their payment methods when they purchase. Amazon users don’t have to worry about that, That being said, you also can’t sell digital goods on Amazon without Amazon getting a cut. But if you don’t think that platform owners shouldn’t allow competitors, do you also think that the console makers shouldn’t be able to produce games?

by mabbo 4y ago

thatguy0900 4y ago

The incentives dont always get messed up. Every grocery store has their own branded items, they even usually get special shelf placement and sales. Its only the greed of these tech companies that makes it an issue by really going hard on abusing their position

plonk 4y ago
French producers complain of unfair negotiations with large supermarket corporations. Multinationals can win against distributors, but it's much harder for smaller local farms.
Zak 4y ago
Greedy doesn't make sense as a criticism of individual for-profit corporations any more than predatory makes sense as a criticism of a cat. The problem in this case isn't that Google and Apple are greedy; the problem is that there aren't effective competitive forces in their markets to keep them in check.
moron4hire 4y ago
That's probably not the best example. There are a lot of brands on the shelves, but very, very few companies. The grocery chains don't produce those items. Store-brand stuff is more of a white-labeling situation with the goal of capturing more of the price curve. It's pretty much a single producer for all the stuff, occasionally with slight variations so people don't catch wise. If you were to start an independent producer, you'd have a very hard time finding shelf space.
mabbo 4y ago
That example is always brought up, but honestly? I don't think that's a fair thing either. I think that particular form of abuse is mild enough and has existed for long enough that we don't even think about it. A law that stops tech companies from this abuse should also stop grocery stores from doing the same thing.
- akersten 4y ago
  I would really not like to double my grocery bill by being excluded from buying the store brand items. I actually like Great Value because it's half the price, same as Amazon Basics. I think they are both fine things to exist.
  - mabbo 4y ago
    The best way to keep prices low is strong competition. Amazon Basics undercuts competitors by having no cost to sell on the Amazon marketplace. Then once the competitor they're imitating is out of business, they can raise prices, and you wind up paying more. I think it would be perfectly fine if the Basics brand existed as an independent company and paid the same fees as everyone else. But real competitors can't sell at a loss indefinitely just to win over the whole market.
    - sithadmin 4y ago
      >Amazon Basics undercuts competitors by having no cost to sell on the Amazon marketplace. Amazon branded products have an advantage through access to analytics, not cost of doing business. Amazon issues internal chargebacks to subsidiaries and business units for use of their platforms.
      - supercheetah 4y ago
        That's still an unfair advantage to Amazon Basics that competitors can't get.
      - mabbo 4y ago
notatoad 4y ago
grocery stores aren't a marketplace, they're a store. they purchase product from suppliers, and re-sell it. they're making the purchase and taking on the risk of stocking the competitor's product. if they can't sell that product, they're the ones taking a loss, not the supplier (generally speaking, some vendors get better terms than others). the problem with a marketplace is that the marketplace isn't taking on any of the risk. google is just getting a cut of sales, so their incentive is to sell the product where they get the biggest cut and there's no self-interest in them treating anybody else fairly.
- ajb 4y ago
  Your grandad's grocery store worked that way, but modern retailers are actually pay to play. They are more like a marketplace than you'd think. Ever wondered why big stores have meters of just Coke and Pepsi, but corner shops have a few each of dozens of brands of drink? it's because only the big brands can afford to buy in. The retailers have market power and they use it to divest cost and risk onto the suppliers.
  - krrrh 4y ago
    Getting a new product into a grocery chain also often involves expenses beyond buying shelf space like paying fees setting up sample tables. There are some beloved brands that can get away with not paying to play. In Canada Hawkins Cheezies made it a badge of honour that it was usually on the bottom shelf at gas stations because they had a policy of not paying for shelf placement.

antihero 4y ago

I wonder how Amazon feel about someone doing that.

gpt5 4y ago
The power Amazon has over the retail market is no where close to what Google & Apple together have over the mobile market.
- ajsnigrutin 4y ago
  But amazon has enough power, enough to win and lose, to be able to actually bring google and apple to court for that.
musicale 4y ago
Last I checked they have their own alternate app store which is used on Fire devices.

dukeofdoom 4y ago

If people knew that twitter and YouTube would censor so much, they would have not joined. It's a kind of a fraud too. Become market leader with open standards, destroying competition,than start censoring and try to sway elections.

rchaud 4y ago
What does Twitter have to do with this? Twitter was never a market leader in the way Google and Apple are. It was a distant 3rd or 4th behind FB, IG and Snap.
9935c101ab17a66 4y ago
You realize that most people don’t really have a problem (or even think about) twitter/YouTube censorship right? You also realize that people sign in the thousands for these services every day? Also, which elections did YouTube and twitter sway? Provide proof. Tbh, a direct connection between trumps addled brain and the internet through twitter has a much larger negative impact on his electability than any kind of “deplatforming”. Twitter did him a favour.
- dukeofdoom 4y ago
  Hunter Biden's story was purposely censored and even a mainstream newspapers account suspended for reporting on it. Just one example. Trumps account suspended too. Accounts suspended for reporting on the lab theory of the virus. Many accounts suspended that questioned the safety or efficiency of the vaccine. Rember they purposely told a lie that it was 95% efficient. Informed consent is opposite of being lied to. Your reality is carefully constructed by billionaires that don't have your best interest in mind or ideologues with claims of doing things for the geater good. Ideologies are always flawed. The world is too complex to fit into their narrow solutions. Hence why you should care more about censorship. Those that set out to get you to believe lies through media monopolies have gone on to kill millions in the past.

toxik 4y ago

> a market or platform owner/operator should not be allowed to also be a competitor within it This problem is somewhat analogous to regulatory capture, you dominate a market so totally you get to set the rules for everyone else too. There is no doubt in my mind that these rules should be set by democratically elected persons. As it is now, we are basically letting capitalist corporations get away with greediness on a scale of literal sea piracy. What’s more, we’re not protecting our culture, our children, or our values anymore because of this nonchalant laissez-faire attitude to what people STILL think is an industry in its infancy. WAKE UP, these people are on the brink of upending the very foundations of democratic society with their antivax-spewing clickbait engagement treadmills. Rant over.

musicale 4y ago

> a market or platform owner/operator should not be allowed to also be a competitor within it. The incentives get messed up and abuse will always follow Isn't that how almost every digital game store works?

scarface74 4y ago

Apple stopped allowing apps from selling digital goods in app back in 2011. Kindle is still more popular than iBooks. It doesn’t hurt that Amazon is either number one or number two as far as having the number of credit cards on file. Apple is the other one. People don’t want to enter their payment methods when they purchase. Amazon users don’t have to worry about that, That being said, you also can’t sell digital goods on Amazon without Amazon getting a cut. But if you don’t think that platform owners shouldn’t allow competitors, do you also think that the console makers shouldn’t be able to produce games?