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Something to think about: It is traditional for landlords operating malls to enforce "percentage leases," where the tenant business pays a flat fee plus a perc

by a4isms 4y ago

Something to think about: It is traditional for landlords operating malls to enforce "percentage leases," where the tenant business pays a flat fee plus a percentage of sales, or a percentage of fees with a certain minimum rent. Structurally, Apple and Google are doing the exact same thing. If you want to operate a store in their digital mall, their terms require you to pay a percentage of sales. This is not a monopoly position any more than saying a mall has a monopoly position on its customers. There are other malls, there are locations not in a mall, there is mail order, their is web-based online selling. If you don't like the lease terms, don't run your business there. The fact that Apple and Google have very large malls that are highly valuable places to run a business is irrelevant: Both platforms run web browsers where customers can buy whatever they like, and you can use a "computer" to shop online to your heart's content. This isn't a welcome argument for those of us who are inconvenienced by the fact that when we visit Apple or Google's mall, some vendors choose to promote their products there without selling their products there. This isn't a welcome argument for those of us who want to sell our products there but dictate to the landlord the terms of the lease. But at the end of the day, I believe this is why we have to put the open web first. Making applications on other people's platforms always has been and always will be digital sharecropping.

jimmaswell 4y ago
There are lots of malls but realistically only one app store per Android or iPhone.
- a4isms 4y ago
  Not as long as those platforms have web browsers that haven't been crippled in some way. If I can buy the tee shirt I'm wearing from ebbetts.com on my iPad, there is more than one store I can shop at on my iPad, it's just that the one Apple provides is marvellously convenient. Ironically, Apple is also in the payments business these days, and again they make it marvellously convenient to "Buy with Apple Pay" in a web browser. But they don't force anyone to offer Apple Pay on a web site, if vendors choose to do so, that's just market forces at work. p.s. And it's an awesome tee shirt! https://www.ebbets.com/collections/negro-leagues/products/montreal-black-panthers-1936-t-shirt https://www.ebbets.com/collections/negro-leagues/products/mo...
- lolinder 4y ago
  There are lots of malls, but if we're talking about the kind that houses >100 business (rather than small strip malls), any given consumer has at most 1-2 that can be reached comfortably. Others are available, but require more work to get to, especially for people without a car. I strongly dislike Apple's and Google's business practices, but I think the analogy OP draws is fair: there are other ways of reaching your customers that require more work on your part and theirs. If it's still worth it to position yourself in the high-traffic mall, that's a valid business decision.
  - colinmhayes 4y ago
    but malls compete with other retail options too. There might only be a couple mega malls available, but if they're too expensive people will go to the stores in the strip mall or on main street or what have you instead. If I want an app on my iPhone there is only one choice.
  - w-j-w 4y ago
  - vel0city 4y ago
    > there are other ways of reaching your customers that require more work on your part and theirs. Which, if in the case of iOS, it's throw away thousands of dollars of computing equipment and previous software licenses so they can buy your $1 app offered on a competing app store.
    - lolinder 4y ago
      Or offer a web app, or a desktop app, or a custom device. I'm not saying I like Apple's game, but I don't think it's as obviously illegal as some do. Should it be? Probably. But it's not obvious to me that courts should rule against them with current laws.
      - vel0city 4y ago
        > Or offer a web app, or a desktop app, or a custom device. Only one of these is essentially not "throw away your iOS device and buy something else" for iOS users, and even then its still 100% controlled by Apple because the only real browser on iOS is Safari. So you're still pretty much in the same boat, but in a worse position trying to reach the large iOS market.
pie_flavor 4y ago
> This is not a monopoly position [...] there are other malls. There are two malls, both of which enforce the same rule. Within a single platform, there is one mall. That is what makes it a monopoly position. Everything else in your post has nothing to do with whether it is actually a monopoly position.
- Spivak 4y ago
  You can make anything sound like a monopoly if you define the market small enough. Inside a mall there's only one mall too. Android and iOS are not the only places where digital goods are sold and consumed. They're not the only mobile video game platforms -- there's also the switch, steam decks, and laptops, and they're certainly not the only video game platforms. They're not the only place to buy and read digital books, Kindle and their competitors are fine. They're not the only place to buy software -- macOS, Windows, Linux, Chromebooks exist. They're not the only place to buy and listen to consume media content -- Apple TV, Chromecast, Roku, Plex, Blu-Ray, Bandcamp, iTunes, Soundcloud, and a billion Spotify Connect devices are all out there. The fact that lots of people shop there and don't shop other places is an argument that their real-estate is valuable, not that they have a monopoly.
  - CJefferson 4y ago
    "Define the market small enough"? A quick Google suggests the market for mobile phones is a trillion dollars a year, which is mostly run by two OSes.
    - scarface74 4y ago
      Fortunately, this has been litigated in a real court of law in the Epic vs. Apple case and the judge specifically said that Apple is not a monopoly.
      - ThatPlayer 4y ago
        The judge said Epic failed to prove Apple had a monopoly, not that they do not have a monopoly.
deanCommie 4y ago
Structurally, in modern society, it is becoming increasingly difficult to thrive without a smartphone on either iOS or Android. You can exist, but it's a much higher burden than most going through life even with the cheapest Android smartphone. (Luckily there ARE lots of fairly cheap options) I wouldn't call it as foundational as water, power, heating, fire protection, or healthcare...but the analogy to phoneline connectivity becomes more and more appropriate. This is not the fault of Apple or Google, but it is a reality. Arguably they don't actually want it because what comes next will not be favourable to them. If mobile OS access is as required as a phone line in the modern world, then you can't treat them like Shopping Malls, but rather Bridges across a river that divides a town. You don't want private companies deciding on the tolls and policies for crossing that bridge. We either shift more towards the open web as you suggested, or we regulate Apple/Google.
- usrn 4y ago
  I live entirely without a smartphone. I hardly ever even carry my Alcatel phone. It's a lot easier than you would think.
colpabar 4y ago
Great, let's keep giving these multi billion dollar international corporations the benefit of the doubt as they make it impossible for competition to grow. We definitely can't update any of our existing laws or definitions, because they were definitely designed with the internet in mind. /s
- a4isms 4y ago
  At no time do I give them the benefit of the doubt, what I did was point out that their behaviour is functionally identical to the behaviour we allow with another class of huge, predatory corporations. If someone were to say, "Hey, now that I think about it, mall landlords shouldn't be in the business of extorting a percentage of their tenants' revenue either," I'd agree.
thfuran 4y ago
>This is not a monopoly position To avoid getting hung up on pedantry and the fact that technically I could, given sufficient time, a cave, and a box of scraps, make my own phone, let's just ditch the term and go with anti-competitive. Surely you'd agree with that characterization?
- scarface74 4y ago
  You don’t have to. There are literally dozens of companies that take the open source version of Android and make their own phones. You can source the parts needed from a variety of vendors and put the Amazon App Store on it.

by a4isms 4y ago

jimmaswell 4y ago

There are lots of malls but realistically only one app store per Android or iPhone.

a4isms 4y ago
Not as long as those platforms have web browsers that haven't been crippled in some way. If I can buy the tee shirt I'm wearing from ebbetts.com on my iPad, there is more than one store I can shop at on my iPad, it's just that the one Apple provides is marvellously convenient. Ironically, Apple is also in the payments business these days, and again they make it marvellously convenient to "Buy with Apple Pay" in a web browser. But they don't force anyone to offer Apple Pay on a web site, if vendors choose to do so, that's just market forces at work. p.s. And it's an awesome tee shirt! https://www.ebbets.com/collections/negro-leagues/products/montreal-black-panthers-1936-t-shirt https://www.ebbets.com/collections/negro-leagues/products/mo...
lolinder 4y ago
There are lots of malls, but if we're talking about the kind that houses >100 business (rather than small strip malls), any given consumer has at most 1-2 that can be reached comfortably. Others are available, but require more work to get to, especially for people without a car. I strongly dislike Apple's and Google's business practices, but I think the analogy OP draws is fair: there are other ways of reaching your customers that require more work on your part and theirs. If it's still worth it to position yourself in the high-traffic mall, that's a valid business decision.
- colinmhayes 4y ago
  but malls compete with other retail options too. There might only be a couple mega malls available, but if they're too expensive people will go to the stores in the strip mall or on main street or what have you instead. If I want an app on my iPhone there is only one choice.
- w-j-w 4y ago
- vel0city 4y ago
  > there are other ways of reaching your customers that require more work on your part and theirs. Which, if in the case of iOS, it's throw away thousands of dollars of computing equipment and previous software licenses so they can buy your $1 app offered on a competing app store.
  - lolinder 4y ago
    Or offer a web app, or a desktop app, or a custom device. I'm not saying I like Apple's game, but I don't think it's as obviously illegal as some do. Should it be? Probably. But it's not obvious to me that courts should rule against them with current laws.
    - vel0city 4y ago
      > Or offer a web app, or a desktop app, or a custom device. Only one of these is essentially not "throw away your iOS device and buy something else" for iOS users, and even then its still 100% controlled by Apple because the only real browser on iOS is Safari. So you're still pretty much in the same boat, but in a worse position trying to reach the large iOS market.

pie_flavor 4y ago

> This is not a monopoly position [...] there are other malls. There are two malls, both of which enforce the same rule. Within a single platform, there is one mall. That is what makes it a monopoly position. Everything else in your post has nothing to do with whether it is actually a monopoly position.

Spivak 4y ago
You can make anything sound like a monopoly if you define the market small enough. Inside a mall there's only one mall too. Android and iOS are not the only places where digital goods are sold and consumed. They're not the only mobile video game platforms -- there's also the switch, steam decks, and laptops, and they're certainly not the only video game platforms. They're not the only place to buy and read digital books, Kindle and their competitors are fine. They're not the only place to buy software -- macOS, Windows, Linux, Chromebooks exist. They're not the only place to buy and listen to consume media content -- Apple TV, Chromecast, Roku, Plex, Blu-Ray, Bandcamp, iTunes, Soundcloud, and a billion Spotify Connect devices are all out there. The fact that lots of people shop there and don't shop other places is an argument that their real-estate is valuable, not that they have a monopoly.
- CJefferson 4y ago
  "Define the market small enough"? A quick Google suggests the market for mobile phones is a trillion dollars a year, which is mostly run by two OSes.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    Fortunately, this has been litigated in a real court of law in the Epic vs. Apple case and the judge specifically said that Apple is not a monopoly.
    - ThatPlayer 4y ago
      The judge said Epic failed to prove Apple had a monopoly, not that they do not have a monopoly.

deanCommie 4y ago

Structurally, in modern society, it is becoming increasingly difficult to thrive without a smartphone on either iOS or Android. You can exist, but it's a much higher burden than most going through life even with the cheapest Android smartphone. (Luckily there ARE lots of fairly cheap options) I wouldn't call it as foundational as water, power, heating, fire protection, or healthcare...but the analogy to phoneline connectivity becomes more and more appropriate. This is not the fault of Apple or Google, but it is a reality. Arguably they don't actually want it because what comes next will not be favourable to them. If mobile OS access is as required as a phone line in the modern world, then you can't treat them like Shopping Malls, but rather Bridges across a river that divides a town. You don't want private companies deciding on the tolls and policies for crossing that bridge. We either shift more towards the open web as you suggested, or we regulate Apple/Google.

usrn 4y ago
I live entirely without a smartphone. I hardly ever even carry my Alcatel phone. It's a lot easier than you would think.

colpabar 4y ago

Great, let's keep giving these multi billion dollar international corporations the benefit of the doubt as they make it impossible for competition to grow. We definitely can't update any of our existing laws or definitions, because they were definitely designed with the internet in mind. /s

a4isms 4y ago
At no time do I give them the benefit of the doubt, what I did was point out that their behaviour is functionally identical to the behaviour we allow with another class of huge, predatory corporations. If someone were to say, "Hey, now that I think about it, mall landlords shouldn't be in the business of extorting a percentage of their tenants' revenue either," I'd agree.

thfuran 4y ago

>This is not a monopoly position To avoid getting hung up on pedantry and the fact that technically I could, given sufficient time, a cave, and a box of scraps, make my own phone, let's just ditch the term and go with anti-competitive. Surely you'd agree with that characterization?

scarface74 4y ago
You don’t have to. There are literally dozens of companies that take the open source version of Android and make their own phones. You can source the parts needed from a variety of vendors and put the Amazon App Store on it.