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> Amazon's made it a little harder to buy Kindle books on Android No. Apple and Google have made it a little harder. While I have no sympathy for Amazon usua

> Amazon's made it a little harder to buy Kindle books on Android No. Apple and Google have made it a little harder. While I have no sympathy for Amazon usually, they're one of the very few that could actually fight this effectively and finally bring this App store madness under control. I would be very careful about messing with Amazon's money. The whole payments/app store paradigm is on shaky ground anyway. It really will not take much for someone like Amazon to get the anti-trust ball rolling.

ericmay 4y ago
> It really will not take much for someone like Amazon to get the anti-trust ball rolling. Seems like it's in full gear right now... Not that Amazon really has much of a leg to stand on here in these conversations.
echelon 4y ago
The fact that both companies are steamrolling ahead into the payments space should have us all on edge. Once physical credit cards disappear, Apple and Google can start to strongarm local businesses into 15% transaction fees.
- slater 4y ago
  As opposed to how it's been until now, where corner store merchants are all "rand() % added to debit/credit charges (even tho we're technically not allowed to)" ?
  - cmeacham98 4y ago
    > rand() % added to debit/credit charges (even tho we're technically not allowed to) Citation needed? This sounds like one of those myths like "not accepting cash (for purchases, not debts) is illegal!" - I couldn't find anything searching online to support this claim. Or are you referring to stores that don't advertise this surcharge upfront and surprise you with it?
    - citizenkeen 4y ago
      https://www.merchantmaverick.com/credit-card-surcharges/ https://www.merchantmaverick.com/credit-card-surcharges/
      - cmeacham98 4y ago
        > As of mid-2021, only two states and one US territory don’t allow credit card surcharges. My bad, I wasn't aware of these exceptions. I'd argue characterizing it as illegal when it's legal in 48 states is a little misleading though.
        shkkmo 4y ago
        It is misleading because it is out of date but absolutely used to be true (or atleast put forward as true by the CC companies in their contracts), so isn't really a "myth" like you say. > After a decade of fighting in court, the merchants involved in the suit, along with the card networks, reached an expensive settlement — and more importantly, the lawsuit laid the groundwork for merchants to recoup some of the costs associated with credit card transactions. The card associations have changed their rules as a result of the lawsuit. The legal situation is still complicated so it is perfectly understandable that there is some confusion and people think the old rules apply.
        lotsofpulp 4y ago
        It has been over 10 years since Dodd Frank made cash/debit card discounts explicitly legal. http://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/resources/new-rules-electronic-payments-lower-costs-retailers http://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/resources/new-rules-ele... This is effectively the same as saying credit card surcharges are legal.
        shkkmo 4y ago
        > This is effectively the same as saying credit card surcharges are legal. They are functionally similar but not effectively the same. Most notably, you couldn't vary the discount based on card type, which makes it useless when negotiating fees with specifiv PCNs. This is precisely why there was a class action antitrust lawsuit, the settlement for which required PCNs (specifically Visa and Mastercard) to change their terms to allow surcharges.
- LordDragonfang 4y ago
  Even in Apple's near-totalitarian payment ecosystem, physical goods have never had the same (exorbitant!) transaction fees and rules as digital goods.
- wnevets 4y ago
  Why haven't you on edge with a handful of banks controlling the payments space?
- cheriot 4y ago
  Then we can finally get federal legislation letting stores pass fees on to the buyer. The fact that Visa/Mastercard contracts forbid that is incredibly anti-competitive.
  - ErikCorry 4y ago
    In the EU we got legislation prohibiting the stores from passing on the credit card fees. I shit you not. Champagne corks must have been popping at the credit card companies when that happened.
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    Dodd Frank legislation outlawed those contract terms in 2011. http://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/resources/new-rules-electronic-payments-lower-costs-retailers http://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/resources/new-rules-ele...
    - cheriot 4y ago
      I learned something from that so thanks. However, I don't think it gets at this issue. Different credit cards charge different fees and afaik there's no way to pass those on. Offering discounts to not use CCs is a good step, though.
      - lotsofpulp 4y ago
        How is it not the same thing? Person paying with debit card or cash pays less than if they were to pay with credit card. I guess technically the merchant can do an AmEx discount and a Visa discount or whatever, but it is probably easier to just do a flat percent off for all credit cards (3% to 5%).
        cheriot 4y ago
        Different cards on the same network have different fees Visa Credit Card Swipe Rate (card present) Visa Credit Basic 1.51% + 10¢ Visa Rewards Traditional 1.65% + 10¢ Visa Rewards Signature 2.30% + 10¢ Visa Rewards Signature Preferred 2.1% + 10¢ Visa Business 2.20% + 10¢ Visa Corporate 2.50% + 10¢ https://www.creditdonkey.com/interchange-rates.html https://www.creditdonkey.com/interchange-rates.html Ideally, the CC fee would be a line item in the receipt specific to the card. Then people will make more informed decisions about which card to use. With the "discount" model the fee changes at each merchant when it should always be the same for a particular card.
- superkuh 4y ago
  My solution to this as a human person is to use cash for all transactions that I can.
  - spiralx 4y ago
    Which also costs time and money to handle and secure, potentially more than card charges do. https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20180130005244/en/New-Research-IHL-Group-Shows-Retailers%25E2%2580%2599-Cash-handling/ https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20180130005244/en/New...
  - scarface74 4y ago
    If I were running a business, I would only accept credit cards. The small fee is worth the tradeoff of not having to handle cash with the risk of employee theft, robberies, counting money, going to the bank, etc. Unfortunately, some cities outlawed that.
    - BizarroLand 4y ago
      Well, yeah, because cash is legal tender, so allowing companies to not accept cash subverts the whole system. I get it that cards are cash equivalent, but it's terribly anti-consumer for companies to not accept cash. That removes poor people's ability to acquire goods and services as well.
      - scarface74 4y ago
        https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm > There is no federal statute mandating that a private business, a person, or an organization must accept currency or coins as payment for goods or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether to accept cash unless there is a state law that says otherwise. > Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, entitled "Legal tender," states: "United States coins and currency [including Federal Reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal Reserve Banks and national banks] are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues." This statute means that all U.S. money as identified above is a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor.
criddell 4y ago
I guess Amazon thinks they should be the only one able to charge a large fee for access to the store. Last time I looked, Amazon commission charges topped out at 65%! https://www.authorimprints.com/amazon-kdp-royalty-pricing/ https://www.authorimprints.com/amazon-kdp-royalty-pricing/
- cmeacham98 4y ago
  This misses the point of what antitrust laws are and what they exist to prevent. The problem here is not solely that google charges a large fee.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- justapassenger 4y ago
  I couldn’t care less about Amazon, but fees for listing in the store aren’t a problem (or not a large one). Problem is that fees are viral and follow you outside of the store.
- DANK_YACHT 4y ago
  Ah yes, I forgot that two wrongs make a right /s.
- VWWHFSfQ 4y ago
  We can care about more than one thing at once! It doesn't always have to be "well what about....". The reality is that we're all beholden to these mega companies and a little infighting between them could us do some good.
cma 4y ago
What percent does Amazon charge authors on kindle book sales? And competing bookstores on Kindle device?
- VWWHFSfQ 4y ago
  We can care about more than one thing at once! It doesn't always have to be "well what about....". The reality is that we're all beholden to these mega companies and a little infighting between them could us do some good.
the_lonely_road 4y ago
I got rid of all my Rokus and replaced them with Fires because Amazon removed Twitch from the Roku and it’s a large part of my streaming content. I grumbled at them for making me do it, but I still did it because at the end of the day I just wanted to be able to stream Twitch. My point is they all flex where they can flex and Amazon deserves no sympathy here. Only consumers are hurt by these territory games.
- bound008 4y ago
  Just a heads up (from articles and comments on other HN threads)-- Roku wants a cut of revenue from apps too. It is not in Amazon's incentive to limit distribution of Twitch. This may be why it is no longer on Roku.
- Larrikin 4y ago
  Roku supports casting and Airplay. I've used both specifically for Twitch. Don't reward Amazon's bad behavior by buying their Fire sticks
  - ar_lan 4y ago
    This must be recent - none of my Roku devices support Airplay, so I've opted to finally switch to an Apple TV. I wonder if mine are just too old though.
    - jshier 4y ago
      Oof. Twitch app on the AppleTV sucks hard, at least for watching recordings. Live watching is okay. But the seeking in the recordings would win one of those "worst UI on purpose" awards. And they banned third party clients, so the official app is the only option.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

ericmay 4y ago

> It really will not take much for someone like Amazon to get the anti-trust ball rolling. Seems like it's in full gear right now... Not that Amazon really has much of a leg to stand on here in these conversations.

echelon 4y ago

The fact that both companies are steamrolling ahead into the payments space should have us all on edge. Once physical credit cards disappear, Apple and Google can start to strongarm local businesses into 15% transaction fees.

slater 4y ago
As opposed to how it's been until now, where corner store merchants are all "rand() % added to debit/credit charges (even tho we're technically not allowed to)" ?
- cmeacham98 4y ago
  > rand() % added to debit/credit charges (even tho we're technically not allowed to) Citation needed? This sounds like one of those myths like "not accepting cash (for purchases, not debts) is illegal!" - I couldn't find anything searching online to support this claim. Or are you referring to stores that don't advertise this surcharge upfront and surprise you with it?
  - citizenkeen 4y ago
    https://www.merchantmaverick.com/credit-card-surcharges/ https://www.merchantmaverick.com/credit-card-surcharges/
    - cmeacham98 4y ago
      > As of mid-2021, only two states and one US territory don’t allow credit card surcharges. My bad, I wasn't aware of these exceptions. I'd argue characterizing it as illegal when it's legal in 48 states is a little misleading though.
      - shkkmo 4y ago
        It is misleading because it is out of date but absolutely used to be true (or atleast put forward as true by the CC companies in their contracts), so isn't really a "myth" like you say. > After a decade of fighting in court, the merchants involved in the suit, along with the card networks, reached an expensive settlement — and more importantly, the lawsuit laid the groundwork for merchants to recoup some of the costs associated with credit card transactions. The card associations have changed their rules as a result of the lawsuit. The legal situation is still complicated so it is perfectly understandable that there is some confusion and people think the old rules apply.
        lotsofpulp 4y ago
        It has been over 10 years since Dodd Frank made cash/debit card discounts explicitly legal. http://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/resources/new-rules-electronic-payments-lower-costs-retailers http://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/resources/new-rules-ele... This is effectively the same as saying credit card surcharges are legal.
        shkkmo 4y ago
        > This is effectively the same as saying credit card surcharges are legal. They are functionally similar but not effectively the same. Most notably, you couldn't vary the discount based on card type, which makes it useless when negotiating fees with specifiv PCNs. This is precisely why there was a class action antitrust lawsuit, the settlement for which required PCNs (specifically Visa and Mastercard) to change their terms to allow surcharges.
LordDragonfang 4y ago
Even in Apple's near-totalitarian payment ecosystem, physical goods have never had the same (exorbitant!) transaction fees and rules as digital goods.
wnevets 4y ago
Why haven't you on edge with a handful of banks controlling the payments space?
cheriot 4y ago
Then we can finally get federal legislation letting stores pass fees on to the buyer. The fact that Visa/Mastercard contracts forbid that is incredibly anti-competitive.
- ErikCorry 4y ago
  In the EU we got legislation prohibiting the stores from passing on the credit card fees. I shit you not. Champagne corks must have been popping at the credit card companies when that happened.
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  Dodd Frank legislation outlawed those contract terms in 2011. http://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/resources/new-rules-electronic-payments-lower-costs-retailers http://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/resources/new-rules-ele...
  - cheriot 4y ago
    I learned something from that so thanks. However, I don't think it gets at this issue. Different credit cards charge different fees and afaik there's no way to pass those on. Offering discounts to not use CCs is a good step, though.
    - lotsofpulp 4y ago
      How is it not the same thing? Person paying with debit card or cash pays less than if they were to pay with credit card. I guess technically the merchant can do an AmEx discount and a Visa discount or whatever, but it is probably easier to just do a flat percent off for all credit cards (3% to 5%).
      - cheriot 4y ago
        Different cards on the same network have different fees Visa Credit Card Swipe Rate (card present) Visa Credit Basic 1.51% + 10¢ Visa Rewards Traditional 1.65% + 10¢ Visa Rewards Signature 2.30% + 10¢ Visa Rewards Signature Preferred 2.1% + 10¢ Visa Business 2.20% + 10¢ Visa Corporate 2.50% + 10¢ https://www.creditdonkey.com/interchange-rates.html https://www.creditdonkey.com/interchange-rates.html Ideally, the CC fee would be a line item in the receipt specific to the card. Then people will make more informed decisions about which card to use. With the "discount" model the fee changes at each merchant when it should always be the same for a particular card.
superkuh 4y ago
My solution to this as a human person is to use cash for all transactions that I can.
- spiralx 4y ago
  Which also costs time and money to handle and secure, potentially more than card charges do. https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20180130005244/en/New-Research-IHL-Group-Shows-Retailers%25E2%2580%2599-Cash-handling/ https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20180130005244/en/New...
- scarface74 4y ago
  If I were running a business, I would only accept credit cards. The small fee is worth the tradeoff of not having to handle cash with the risk of employee theft, robberies, counting money, going to the bank, etc. Unfortunately, some cities outlawed that.
  - BizarroLand 4y ago
    Well, yeah, because cash is legal tender, so allowing companies to not accept cash subverts the whole system. I get it that cards are cash equivalent, but it's terribly anti-consumer for companies to not accept cash. That removes poor people's ability to acquire goods and services as well.
    - scarface74 4y ago
      https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm > There is no federal statute mandating that a private business, a person, or an organization must accept currency or coins as payment for goods or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether to accept cash unless there is a state law that says otherwise. > Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, entitled "Legal tender," states: "United States coins and currency [including Federal Reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal Reserve Banks and national banks] are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues." This statute means that all U.S. money as identified above is a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor.

criddell 4y ago

I guess Amazon thinks they should be the only one able to charge a large fee for access to the store. Last time I looked, Amazon commission charges topped out at 65%! https://www.authorimprints.com/amazon-kdp-royalty-pricing/ https://www.authorimprints.com/amazon-kdp-royalty-pricing/

cmeacham98 4y ago
This misses the point of what antitrust laws are and what they exist to prevent. The problem here is not solely that google charges a large fee.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
justapassenger 4y ago
I couldn’t care less about Amazon, but fees for listing in the store aren’t a problem (or not a large one). Problem is that fees are viral and follow you outside of the store.
DANK_YACHT 4y ago
Ah yes, I forgot that two wrongs make a right /s.
VWWHFSfQ 4y ago
We can care about more than one thing at once! It doesn't always have to be "well what about....". The reality is that we're all beholden to these mega companies and a little infighting between them could us do some good.

cma 4y ago

What percent does Amazon charge authors on kindle book sales? And competing bookstores on Kindle device?

VWWHFSfQ 4y ago
We can care about more than one thing at once! It doesn't always have to be "well what about....". The reality is that we're all beholden to these mega companies and a little infighting between them could us do some good.

the_lonely_road 4y ago

I got rid of all my Rokus and replaced them with Fires because Amazon removed Twitch from the Roku and it’s a large part of my streaming content. I grumbled at them for making me do it, but I still did it because at the end of the day I just wanted to be able to stream Twitch. My point is they all flex where they can flex and Amazon deserves no sympathy here. Only consumers are hurt by these territory games.

bound008 4y ago
Just a heads up (from articles and comments on other HN threads)-- Roku wants a cut of revenue from apps too. It is not in Amazon's incentive to limit distribution of Twitch. This may be why it is no longer on Roku.
Larrikin 4y ago
Roku supports casting and Airplay. I've used both specifically for Twitch. Don't reward Amazon's bad behavior by buying their Fire sticks
- ar_lan 4y ago
  This must be recent - none of my Roku devices support Airplay, so I've opted to finally switch to an Apple TV. I wonder if mine are just too old though.
  - jshier 4y ago
    Oof. Twitch app on the AppleTV sucks hard, at least for watching recordings. Live watching is okay. But the seeking in the recordings would win one of those "worst UI on purpose" awards. And they banned third party clients, so the official app is the only option.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]