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Surprised there’s no discussion on the price delta here - I could buy 10x power-walls for $110k, or 1x E F150 for $40k and get a free truck thrown in. As someo

by ag56 4y ago

Surprised there’s no discussion on the price delta here - I could buy 10x power-walls for $110k, or 1x E F150 for $40k and get a free truck thrown in. As someone with a large house who just investigated a hybrid power walls + gas generator + solar backup solution and didn’t go through with it due to cost, this is huge. I am literally considering buying an F150 to just keep parked stationary behind my garage.

surfaceofthesun 4y ago
My understanding is the more natural comparison is between the ~$80k truck with the power walls since it allows the backup power solution vs manually plugging things in via extension cord. Engineering Explained had a good video about it. https://youtu.be/ATAFIoXTEe8 https://youtu.be/ATAFIoXTEe8
- ag56 4y ago
  Thanks. But even at $80k it’s a no brainer. The hybrid solution I vetoed came in at $130k! EDIT: To expand on that, only about $40k was batteries. After an initial period would fall back to (large) generator and only certain areas of house powered. I’d have to check the math, but an E F150 with a much smaller generator would be both cheaper and power the whole house indefinitely.
  - bradfa 4y ago
    It depends on your use case. If your use case is emergency backup power, then yeah the truck is the hands down winner. But if your use case is to load shift to minimize costs then buying a slightly smaller fixed location (ie: powerwall) battery bank which is always able to be on-line will likely make more sense, since once you drive the truck somewhere it's no longer attached to the house. It depends on how your electricity generation, distribution, and consumption works for your own location. But also, holy cow! $130k in powerwalls is a LOT of powerwall!
    - garciasn 4y ago
      Natural gas and/or propane is the best option for my home. Solar installation + battery is just insanely expensive compared to gas (6x at a minimum) and where I live offers far less reliability.
    - NickRandom 4y ago
      I agree. Plus any prolonged power outage (multi days) is likely to be area wide which means that topping up an F150 from a fast charger before dark and those are likely to be heavilly over subscribed (or out of action) in the local area. With the Powerwall option you could top up your F150 at home then range further to find a working fast charger thats within the calculated power budget.
  - cptskippy 4y ago
    You'll need to consider that the truck uses a different battery chemistry than home battery backup solutions intended for a different use case. The truck isn't intended to power your entire home and you'll likely have to use a manual disconnect from the grid. Also it sounds like you'd still need solar panels and a backup generator.
moffkalast 4y ago
This especially makes sense these days now that (in most places) you can only sell your solar at bulk rates which are lower than the electricity you buy. So you literally get your energy sold back to you at a premium for the sole service of storage which is a rather crap deal. Keeping all the power you produce seems like the best option, though you do have to pay for the initial cost of batteries. It would be neat to see some numbers as to how long it would take to make up the cost back in monthly bill reductions depending on the local prices.
- PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
  > This especially makes sense these days now that (in most places) you can only sell your solar at bulk rates which are lower than the electricity you buy. Here in NM, that's true if you literally sell your surplus solar. But if you allow PNM to "bank" it, you receive kW for kW back what you put in, when you need it (e.g. during the dramatically colder winters here in northern NM).
rsync 4y ago
10x powerwalls for 110k or f150 for 40k … … or generac with 100amp breaker for 4K … We power our house and our outbuildings/barns with no problems - even using 30a dryer and 20a microwave, etc. - all from the generator. 500 gallon propane tank implies at least 7 days of runtime but much more if we conserved. I can’t believe we lived without this …
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- HWR_14 4y ago
  > 500 gallon propane tank implies at least 7 days of runtime but much more if we conserved. I can’t believe we lived without this How unreliable is your power grid? It's a lot easier having someone else manage the entire infrastructure. Unless you're in an area with common widespread natural disasters there's no reason to expect a 7 day outage ever.
  - imwillofficial 4y ago
    What an inexperienced comment. Stuff happens and it pays to be prepared
  - lolsal 4y ago
    > Unless you're in an area with common widespread natural disasters there's no reason to expect a 7 day outage ever. Are thunderstorms considered a natural disaster (sincerely asking)? I've lived in a few states, in a few rural areas and sometimes storms would knock power lines down for a handful of days. I don't remember any 7 day stretches, but 2-4 days was not uncommon. Even more in the winter when I was in a snowy area.
    - mbreese 4y ago
      Not usually, but you’re absolutely right to think about it. My dad lives in a rural area in the Midwest and often has to deal with power outages lasting for a few days after particularly bad storms or ice. I think 7 days is probably on the long side of an expected outage, but not too crazy to plan for.
reactjavascript 4y ago
Ford has found value “sweet spots” with the $39k electric F-150 and the $19k, 30mpg Maverick. They are both very reasonable vehicle choices that almost any household could make use of.
- maigret 4y ago
  Interesting point of view, from my European view they seem like totally frivolous vanity items that are not only bad taste but actively destroy the planet. We're in the middle of a climate and resource crisis, and you could easily make two cars out of one F150 raw material (except maybe for the battery). They weight a lot which damages the road more, they are also very dangerous for pedestrians. Why isn't everyone looking forward a more reasonable future with cars sized after one's real needs, not damaging aspirations? I know the car industry wants cars big, but consumers should activate a little bit their brains too and think a bit about the bigger picture.
slg 4y ago
>Surprised there’s no discussion on the price delta here - I could buy 10x power-walls for $110k, or 1x E F150 for $40k and get a free truck thrown in. The reason there is no discussion of price delta is at least partially because the price of the truck discussed in the article is not the $40k variant. 10 Powerwalls would be 140 kWh of battery while the $40k F-150 Lightning would be 98 kWh. The one mentioned in the article with the 131 kWh battery is nearly double the price starting at $72.5k. That still might make the F-150 the better solution, but accuracy is important.
- vlovich123 4y ago
  10 Powerwalls: 1.27 Wh/$ 1 40k truck: 3.5 Wh/$ 1 72.5k truck: 1.8 Wh/$ I think you're better off getting the 40k truck. I have no idea how Ford is getting batteries for so much cheaper for the 40k truck.
  - toiletfuneral 4y ago
    do we know the margins on Tesla Powerwalls?
    - lupire 4y ago
      Presumably extremely high, because we can't name a competitor and battery supply is limited by manufacturing logistics not supply/demand.
      - throwtheacctawy 4y ago
      - namlem 4y ago
        There are actually quite a lot of companies in that space, though mostly pretty small ones. Panasonic does sell their own home battery system though.
  - nielsbot 4y ago
outworlder 4y ago
> As someone with a large house who just investigated a hybrid power walls + gas generator + solar backup solution What about solar as the primary power solution, plus powerwalls for the night. How much would it cost?
technofiend 4y ago
Powerwalls may have a premium over other commercial solutions. Will Prowse covers everything from Powerwalls, DIY and commercial systems down to portable camping batteries on his YouTube channel [1]. For the kind of investment you're talking about, it may be worth exploring other potentially more cost-effective options outside of DIY. [1] https://www.youtube.com/c/WillProwse https://www.youtube.com/c/WillProwse
elif 4y ago
I'm not sure where you got your numbers from, but as the owner and operator of multiple EV's and a powerwall, they sound way off to me. But beyond that, there are big distinctions left out of your theory: for instance, that the F150 is selling for 130-145k unless you happen to be friends with a ford dealer, and that the powerwall's value is primarily derived from grid peak time cost savings, not just emergency backup. Unless you plan to charge and discharge your car's battery daily, by, i suppose manually flicking your main breaker over (is that even legal?) you will not see that value returned with your truck.
progfix 4y ago
You should base your decisions on life cycle costs not inital costs. What is the longevity of the car battery vs. house battery? How much does their disposal cost?

by ag56 4y ago

surfaceofthesun 4y ago

My understanding is the more natural comparison is between the ~$80k truck with the power walls since it allows the backup power solution vs manually plugging things in via extension cord. Engineering Explained had a good video about it. https://youtu.be/ATAFIoXTEe8 https://youtu.be/ATAFIoXTEe8

ag56 4y ago
Thanks. But even at $80k it’s a no brainer. The hybrid solution I vetoed came in at $130k! EDIT: To expand on that, only about $40k was batteries. After an initial period would fall back to (large) generator and only certain areas of house powered. I’d have to check the math, but an E F150 with a much smaller generator would be both cheaper and power the whole house indefinitely.
- bradfa 4y ago
  It depends on your use case. If your use case is emergency backup power, then yeah the truck is the hands down winner. But if your use case is to load shift to minimize costs then buying a slightly smaller fixed location (ie: powerwall) battery bank which is always able to be on-line will likely make more sense, since once you drive the truck somewhere it's no longer attached to the house. It depends on how your electricity generation, distribution, and consumption works for your own location. But also, holy cow! $130k in powerwalls is a LOT of powerwall!
  - garciasn 4y ago
    Natural gas and/or propane is the best option for my home. Solar installation + battery is just insanely expensive compared to gas (6x at a minimum) and where I live offers far less reliability.
  - NickRandom 4y ago
    I agree. Plus any prolonged power outage (multi days) is likely to be area wide which means that topping up an F150 from a fast charger before dark and those are likely to be heavilly over subscribed (or out of action) in the local area. With the Powerwall option you could top up your F150 at home then range further to find a working fast charger thats within the calculated power budget.
- cptskippy 4y ago
  You'll need to consider that the truck uses a different battery chemistry than home battery backup solutions intended for a different use case. The truck isn't intended to power your entire home and you'll likely have to use a manual disconnect from the grid. Also it sounds like you'd still need solar panels and a backup generator.

moffkalast 4y ago

This especially makes sense these days now that (in most places) you can only sell your solar at bulk rates which are lower than the electricity you buy. So you literally get your energy sold back to you at a premium for the sole service of storage which is a rather crap deal. Keeping all the power you produce seems like the best option, though you do have to pay for the initial cost of batteries. It would be neat to see some numbers as to how long it would take to make up the cost back in monthly bill reductions depending on the local prices.

PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
> This especially makes sense these days now that (in most places) you can only sell your solar at bulk rates which are lower than the electricity you buy. Here in NM, that's true if you literally sell your surplus solar. But if you allow PNM to "bank" it, you receive kW for kW back what you put in, when you need it (e.g. during the dramatically colder winters here in northern NM).

rsync 4y ago

10x powerwalls for 110k or f150 for 40k … … or generac with 100amp breaker for 4K … We power our house and our outbuildings/barns with no problems - even using 30a dryer and 20a microwave, etc. - all from the generator. 500 gallon propane tank implies at least 7 days of runtime but much more if we conserved. I can’t believe we lived without this …

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
HWR_14 4y ago
> 500 gallon propane tank implies at least 7 days of runtime but much more if we conserved. I can’t believe we lived without this How unreliable is your power grid? It's a lot easier having someone else manage the entire infrastructure. Unless you're in an area with common widespread natural disasters there's no reason to expect a 7 day outage ever.
- imwillofficial 4y ago
  What an inexperienced comment. Stuff happens and it pays to be prepared
- lolsal 4y ago
  > Unless you're in an area with common widespread natural disasters there's no reason to expect a 7 day outage ever. Are thunderstorms considered a natural disaster (sincerely asking)? I've lived in a few states, in a few rural areas and sometimes storms would knock power lines down for a handful of days. I don't remember any 7 day stretches, but 2-4 days was not uncommon. Even more in the winter when I was in a snowy area.
  - mbreese 4y ago
    Not usually, but you’re absolutely right to think about it. My dad lives in a rural area in the Midwest and often has to deal with power outages lasting for a few days after particularly bad storms or ice. I think 7 days is probably on the long side of an expected outage, but not too crazy to plan for.

reactjavascript 4y ago

Ford has found value “sweet spots” with the $39k electric F-150 and the $19k, 30mpg Maverick. They are both very reasonable vehicle choices that almost any household could make use of.

maigret 4y ago
Interesting point of view, from my European view they seem like totally frivolous vanity items that are not only bad taste but actively destroy the planet. We're in the middle of a climate and resource crisis, and you could easily make two cars out of one F150 raw material (except maybe for the battery). They weight a lot which damages the road more, they are also very dangerous for pedestrians. Why isn't everyone looking forward a more reasonable future with cars sized after one's real needs, not damaging aspirations? I know the car industry wants cars big, but consumers should activate a little bit their brains too and think a bit about the bigger picture.

slg 4y ago

>Surprised there’s no discussion on the price delta here - I could buy 10x power-walls for $110k, or 1x E F150 for $40k and get a free truck thrown in. The reason there is no discussion of price delta is at least partially because the price of the truck discussed in the article is not the $40k variant. 10 Powerwalls would be 140 kWh of battery while the $40k F-150 Lightning would be 98 kWh. The one mentioned in the article with the 131 kWh battery is nearly double the price starting at $72.5k. That still might make the F-150 the better solution, but accuracy is important.

vlovich123 4y ago
10 Powerwalls: 1.27 Wh/$ 1 40k truck: 3.5 Wh/$ 1 72.5k truck: 1.8 Wh/$ I think you're better off getting the 40k truck. I have no idea how Ford is getting batteries for so much cheaper for the 40k truck.
- toiletfuneral 4y ago
  do we know the margins on Tesla Powerwalls?
  - lupire 4y ago
    Presumably extremely high, because we can't name a competitor and battery supply is limited by manufacturing logistics not supply/demand.
    - throwtheacctawy 4y ago
    - namlem 4y ago
      There are actually quite a lot of companies in that space, though mostly pretty small ones. Panasonic does sell their own home battery system though.
- nielsbot 4y ago

outworlder 4y ago

> As someone with a large house who just investigated a hybrid power walls + gas generator + solar backup solution What about solar as the primary power solution, plus powerwalls for the night. How much would it cost?

technofiend 4y ago

Powerwalls may have a premium over other commercial solutions. Will Prowse covers everything from Powerwalls, DIY and commercial systems down to portable camping batteries on his YouTube channel [1]. For the kind of investment you're talking about, it may be worth exploring other potentially more cost-effective options outside of DIY. [1] https://www.youtube.com/c/WillProwse https://www.youtube.com/c/WillProwse

elif 4y ago

I'm not sure where you got your numbers from, but as the owner and operator of multiple EV's and a powerwall, they sound way off to me. But beyond that, there are big distinctions left out of your theory: for instance, that the F150 is selling for 130-145k unless you happen to be friends with a ford dealer, and that the powerwall's value is primarily derived from grid peak time cost savings, not just emergency backup. Unless you plan to charge and discharge your car's battery daily, by, i suppose manually flicking your main breaker over (is that even legal?) you will not see that value returned with your truck.

progfix 4y ago

You should base your decisions on life cycle costs not inital costs. What is the longevity of the car battery vs. house battery? How much does their disposal cost?