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> Stop doing overtime, and read this: https://www.7pace.com/blog/overtime-kills https://www.7pace.com/blog/overtime-kills and http://blog.approache.com/2010/11/

> Stop doing overtime, and read this: https://www.7pace.com/blog/overtime-kills https://www.7pace.com/blog/overtime-kills and http://blog.approache.com/2010/11/rules-of-productivity.html http://blog.approache.com/2010/11/rules-of-productivity.html That was fascinating reading, thanks for sharing. This seems like absolutely crucial data for a startup. Rationally, these links imply that a startup should work 40 hour weeks. Intuitively I'm not entirely convinced, but I want to be. I work 50 hours minimum and have regularly worked 60-65 in the recent past. I can't imagine that 40 hours would have gotten me as far. But obviously I may be misjudging myself. I think a startup founder would rightly have this fear - if I ask people to work 40 hours, will the investors scream at me? What if my competitors work longer hours, will they beat me? These are such key questions that I feel you have to be _really_, _really_ confident about these results.

koonsolo 4y ago
There were periods in my life when I was obsessed with productivity. I found out that I can do about 3 to 4 hours of highly concentrated work a day. On extreme days, I could pull off 6 hours of concentration. But I always paid back that time in the days after. Now I can't do those hours in 1 go, there need to be pauses in between. Spending 40 hours a week doing 15 to 20 hours of highly concentrated work seems reasonable to me. It's possible that I'm highly unproductive with my 3 to 4 hours a day, but there are clues in my life that say otherwise. I have a masters degree in CS, and at work always got good to great reviews. So comparing myself to others, I'm doing pretty great. Never have I met anyone who was 2x or more productive than me (when I was not in my unproductive periods). I met plenty of people who were way smarter than me. Another clue: while studying, I would do 75% of my study material before lunch, then had to struggle the remaining 25% in the afternoon and early evening. At 20:00, I was completely done. I would read 1 sentence, and it just would not stick in my head. It was impossible at that point for me to learn. I know people who study way into the night, and I always wondered how they were able to pull this off. Well, in the end it turned out they didn't do shit in the mornings. So for me, I'm very skeptical about working 60 to 80 hours a week. I think a lot of people are just fooling themselves. Sometimes you hear stories like Elon Musk or John Carmack, who seem to be able to work crazy amount of hours. But still I'm highly skeptical about their reporting. Let's just say I would love to see it with my own eyes if they fit into my theory or not. If they don't fit, I would love to know how they are able to do it. I've seen others online that report the same as me. 4 hours a day of highly concentrated work. That you can sit in meetings 60 to 80 hours a week, I have no doubt. But I don't think it would equate into 60 to 80 hours of productive work. Anyway, if you have more on the topic, I would love to hear it. Also, check out this video, which is also very informative and comes from a pretty reliable source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LH1bewTg-P4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LH1bewTg-P4
- bboylen 4y ago
  I think what you described is the case for the vast majority of people, I certainly feel the same for myself. I do believe in outliers however. Some people really do seem to just be wired differently. Problems can be caused though when average people take advice from the Elon Musks of the world and burn themselves out trying to work 90 hour weeks.
  - randomsearch 4y ago
    > I do believe in outliers however. Some people really do seem to just be wired differently. This is covered in the links. Basic response: highly sceptical that is true. If it is true, then you'll find that if that person _also_ took care of themselves, they'd get even more done.
- randomsearch 4y ago
  > Anyway, if you have more on the topic, I would love to hear it. Also, check out this video, which is also very informative and comes from a pretty reliable source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LH1bewTg-P4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LH1bewTg-P4 Thanks, that was a great watch. I note he doesn't make any recommendations about working hours though, just "do ensure you have enough time to do these things that help".
thebean11 4y ago
How would investors know what hours the devs are working?
duped 4y ago
Investors don't give two hoots how many hours your people work, they care if you reach the goals you promise you will (which translates near directly into likelihood that their investment has some return). The key insight is that working more hours doesn't lead to more work being accomplished, because there's a saturation region to productivity. Couple that with the fact that there's a negative return for sustained overexertion, consistently working excessive hours actually is less productive for individuals and teams. But if you don't believe it, measure it.

koonsolo 4y ago

There were periods in my life when I was obsessed with productivity. I found out that I can do about 3 to 4 hours of highly concentrated work a day. On extreme days, I could pull off 6 hours of concentration. But I always paid back that time in the days after. Now I can't do those hours in 1 go, there need to be pauses in between. Spending 40 hours a week doing 15 to 20 hours of highly concentrated work seems reasonable to me. It's possible that I'm highly unproductive with my 3 to 4 hours a day, but there are clues in my life that say otherwise. I have a masters degree in CS, and at work always got good to great reviews. So comparing myself to others, I'm doing pretty great. Never have I met anyone who was 2x or more productive than me (when I was not in my unproductive periods). I met plenty of people who were way smarter than me. Another clue: while studying, I would do 75% of my study material before lunch, then had to struggle the remaining 25% in the afternoon and early evening. At 20:00, I was completely done. I would read 1 sentence, and it just would not stick in my head. It was impossible at that point for me to learn. I know people who study way into the night, and I always wondered how they were able to pull this off. Well, in the end it turned out they didn't do shit in the mornings. So for me, I'm very skeptical about working 60 to 80 hours a week. I think a lot of people are just fooling themselves. Sometimes you hear stories like Elon Musk or John Carmack, who seem to be able to work crazy amount of hours. But still I'm highly skeptical about their reporting. Let's just say I would love to see it with my own eyes if they fit into my theory or not. If they don't fit, I would love to know how they are able to do it. I've seen others online that report the same as me. 4 hours a day of highly concentrated work. That you can sit in meetings 60 to 80 hours a week, I have no doubt. But I don't think it would equate into 60 to 80 hours of productive work. Anyway, if you have more on the topic, I would love to hear it. Also, check out this video, which is also very informative and comes from a pretty reliable source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LH1bewTg-P4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LH1bewTg-P4

bboylen 4y ago
I think what you described is the case for the vast majority of people, I certainly feel the same for myself. I do believe in outliers however. Some people really do seem to just be wired differently. Problems can be caused though when average people take advice from the Elon Musks of the world and burn themselves out trying to work 90 hour weeks.
- randomsearch 4y ago
  > I do believe in outliers however. Some people really do seem to just be wired differently. This is covered in the links. Basic response: highly sceptical that is true. If it is true, then you'll find that if that person _also_ took care of themselves, they'd get even more done.
randomsearch 4y ago
> Anyway, if you have more on the topic, I would love to hear it. Also, check out this video, which is also very informative and comes from a pretty reliable source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LH1bewTg-P4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LH1bewTg-P4 Thanks, that was a great watch. I note he doesn't make any recommendations about working hours though, just "do ensure you have enough time to do these things that help".

thebean11 4y ago

How would investors know what hours the devs are working?

duped 4y ago

Investors don't give two hoots how many hours your people work, they care if you reach the goals you promise you will (which translates near directly into likelihood that their investment has some return). The key insight is that working more hours doesn't lead to more work being accomplished, because there's a saturation region to productivity. Couple that with the fact that there's a negative return for sustained overexertion, consistently working excessive hours actually is less productive for individuals and teams. But if you don't believe it, measure it.