4 ms·

I think thats a case of perceiving the basics to be to hard to properly execute on. Maxing out build orders in multiple buildings in multiple locations while op

by robryan 15y ago

I think thats a case of perceiving the basics to be to hard to properly execute on. Maxing out build orders in multiple buildings in multiple locations while optimally planning for expansion and getting the right balance of things being built is hard. I guess how this applies is that people want a short cut so they don't have to be the best they can be at the fundamentals.

sliverstorm 15y ago
I'm rather of the opinion they simply do not realize how important the fundamentals are. Fundamentals are not glamorous and easy to miss for the untrained eye, so when your enemy comes knocking with twice as many troops you are inclined to think they must be doing something special.
- gchpaco 15y ago
  Starcraft actually makes the fundamentals deliberately difficult, note, which is one of the reasons it is so competitive but also one of the reasons it has such a steep learning curve. If you're a Zerg in SC2 you must program yourself every thirty seconds to go around to every hatch and inject larvae, every time, even in the middle of microing a battle. This is hard to do for most humans and even for professional gamers, and is one of the (many) things that drives me absolutely bats about SC2. The thing that infuriates me about that particular example is it would take thirty seconds for someone at Blizzard to make that ability autocastable. But the analogous macro capabilities (Terran mules, Protoss chronoboost) are not so easily automated, and so everybody has to have this stupid timer in their heads. I like the Company of Heroes/Dawn of War 2 model better, where you can set something on "overwatch" which means the moment you have the resources, it will start building it. Not everything in DOW2 is overwatchable but a significant amount of the niggling details like troop reinforcement is, and it can really simplify things like "I want a Chimera ASAP". Even in DOW2 it isn't always appropriate--overwatch reinforcement can bleed resources you are banking to some higher tier unit dry--but it's nice to have the option.
  - sliverstorm 15y ago
    I personally agree, but I suspect if Blizzard allowed enough of that sort of thing the nature of the game would become much more macro-focused, and what makes the game unique and great appears to be a balance between micro and macro.
  - anaccountiguess 15y ago
    well with the larvae example, you can have your queens in a group and then just spam-click the hatcheries on the minimap, or use a couple other techniques but still i agree that it's going to be annoying because it has to keep ticking in your head regardless. in fact the annoying "economy" micro is the reason i got bored of the game and stopped playing. while i know i could get pretty darn good at the game if i practiced it with some seriousness, doing that was just more work than i would ever put into something that is supposed to be fun
jamesaguilar 15y ago
The whole point is it's not about tightly optimized build orders or perfectly timed expansions. - Make workers always. Corollary: when you are about to have too many workers for one base, build another base. - Always be building out of production buildings. Corrolary: don't start new production buildings until you have too much money even maximally utilizing old buildings. - Don't get supply blocked. (Caveat: none of this applies perfectly to Zerg because it is just harder. But the joy of Starcraft is that there are two other races that weren't designed deliberately to be obtuse and difficult to play.) If you can consistently do those three things you will be able to attack-move into the enemy's base right up to the 95th percentile of Starcraft players. It has nothing to do with maxing out build orders or any of that complicated stuff. It's the barest, simplest fundamentals that most people have a very poor grasp of that are both the easiest and most necessary ways to improve their game. It's like someone who is not very good at basketball. If you wanted to tell them how to get better would you say, "You should learn the full court press, zone defense, give and go." Or would you say, "Learn how to shoot a basket. Learn how to make a pass." I would argue the latter is going to contribute more to being a good basketball player.

by robryan 15y ago

sliverstorm 15y ago

I'm rather of the opinion they simply do not realize how important the fundamentals are. Fundamentals are not glamorous and easy to miss for the untrained eye, so when your enemy comes knocking with twice as many troops you are inclined to think they must be doing something special.

gchpaco 15y ago
Starcraft actually makes the fundamentals deliberately difficult, note, which is one of the reasons it is so competitive but also one of the reasons it has such a steep learning curve. If you're a Zerg in SC2 you must program yourself every thirty seconds to go around to every hatch and inject larvae, every time, even in the middle of microing a battle. This is hard to do for most humans and even for professional gamers, and is one of the (many) things that drives me absolutely bats about SC2. The thing that infuriates me about that particular example is it would take thirty seconds for someone at Blizzard to make that ability autocastable. But the analogous macro capabilities (Terran mules, Protoss chronoboost) are not so easily automated, and so everybody has to have this stupid timer in their heads. I like the Company of Heroes/Dawn of War 2 model better, where you can set something on "overwatch" which means the moment you have the resources, it will start building it. Not everything in DOW2 is overwatchable but a significant amount of the niggling details like troop reinforcement is, and it can really simplify things like "I want a Chimera ASAP". Even in DOW2 it isn't always appropriate--overwatch reinforcement can bleed resources you are banking to some higher tier unit dry--but it's nice to have the option.
- sliverstorm 15y ago
  I personally agree, but I suspect if Blizzard allowed enough of that sort of thing the nature of the game would become much more macro-focused, and what makes the game unique and great appears to be a balance between micro and macro.
- anaccountiguess 15y ago
  well with the larvae example, you can have your queens in a group and then just spam-click the hatcheries on the minimap, or use a couple other techniques but still i agree that it's going to be annoying because it has to keep ticking in your head regardless. in fact the annoying "economy" micro is the reason i got bored of the game and stopped playing. while i know i could get pretty darn good at the game if i practiced it with some seriousness, doing that was just more work than i would ever put into something that is supposed to be fun

jamesaguilar 15y ago

The whole point is it's not about tightly optimized build orders or perfectly timed expansions. - Make workers always. Corollary: when you are about to have too many workers for one base, build another base. - Always be building out of production buildings. Corrolary: don't start new production buildings until you have too much money even maximally utilizing old buildings. - Don't get supply blocked. (Caveat: none of this applies perfectly to Zerg because it is just harder. But the joy of Starcraft is that there are two other races that weren't designed deliberately to be obtuse and difficult to play.) If you can consistently do those three things you will be able to attack-move into the enemy's base right up to the 95th percentile of Starcraft players. It has nothing to do with maxing out build orders or any of that complicated stuff. It's the barest, simplest fundamentals that most people have a very poor grasp of that are both the easiest and most necessary ways to improve their game. It's like someone who is not very good at basketball. If you wanted to tell them how to get better would you say, "You should learn the full court press, zone defense, give and go." Or would you say, "Learn how to shoot a basket. Learn how to make a pass." I would argue the latter is going to contribute more to being a good basketball player.