4 ms·

Margin notes to “HTML 4.0 in Netscape and Explorer” (2000)

53 points by Lammy 4y ago

tannhaeuser 4y ago
Interestingly, the same author was the first to create and publish an SGML DTD for WHATWG HTML (aka HTML 5) [1], though I believe mine [2] to be more complete and up-to-date at this point. [1]: https://jkorpela.fi/html5-dtd.html https://jkorpela.fi/html5-dtd.html [2]: http://sgmljs.net/docs/w3c-html52-dtd.html http://sgmljs.net/docs/w3c-html52-dtd.html
- realist2022 4y ago
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
kaichanvong 4y ago
amazing Share; "wuts-HTML?" and, "how do I learn it?". Could be, 1 of many, many schools of thought Should we all be sharing these inner questions?
karamanolev 4y ago
I had a chuckle reading the paragraph below and comparing it to the modern ecosystem of HTML5, JS, SPAs and so on: The HTML 4.0 specification is a huge, intensely technical document that contains hundreds of different elements and can have all sorts of applications. It is at times difficult to understand. This is not an error on behalf of the authors. In fact, very few people are expected to read the specification; HTML was originally intended to be a document format that the author wouldn't learn or see, but something that would be created by programs designed for this task.
- hoyd 4y ago
  That's amazing, thanks.
- jefftk 4y ago
  Note that this paragraph is not one of the "margin notes", but a quotation from the book they're reviewing. Their commentary disagrees: First, the specification can be called large, but hardly huge. It does not contain hundreds of elements, at least if the word "element" is taken in the sense that it is used in the specification. It is hardly true that very few people are expected to read it. The specification contains several introductory and tutorial parts - many of them rather good - which obviously imply that it was written for a wide audience. And the specification itself says, in its About the HTML 4.0 Specification part: > This document has been written with two types of readers in mind: authors and implementors. We hope the specification will provide authors with the tools they need to write efficient, attractive, and accessible documents, without over-exposing them to HTML's implementation details. And who says HTML was not intended to be writeable and readable by humans? There seems to a rumor that Tim Berners-Lee himself has said something like that, but if that's true, perhaps someone did not get the joke.
- kaichanvong 4y ago
  I know right! It's full of that kind of expression of love. It took me back to being in a club while studying. One guy, and his brother... chat lots about how they were looking forward to doing stuff. His T-Shirt was about chatting HTML, all these amazing helpful different parts, almost looked German to me. It's a part of technology, build that I appreciate from that part. Could be the Japanese film Wind Rises, I don't know
TazeTSchnitzel 4y ago
I'd never heard of the DIR and MENU elements. Hierarchical directory listings and proper menus are things I wanted browsers to natively support. I guess the spec authors tried and the implementations didn't deliver. :(
- spread_love 4y ago
  <dir> was deprecated but <menu> was implemented (somewhat) https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/menu https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/me...
forgotmypw17 4y ago
The amazing part about HTML and the Web is that if you carefully pare down what HTML and JS you use to the lowest common denominator, you can write a web page which works with 25 years worth of clients.
- xeromal 4y ago
  That is very impressive. Fun thought.
  - forgotmypw17 4y ago
    Thank you. For me, it is more than a thought, I've written an entire framework for making hyper-compatible online spaces. :)
peterjmag 4y ago
The original document being commented isn't available anymore. Luckily, the Internet Archive has a copy: https://web.archive.org/web/20000517232106/http://webreference.com/dev/html4nsie/index.html https://web.archive.org/web/20000517232106/http://webreferen... Digging around a bit more, the original webreference.com (along with this article) existed until around April 2020. It's since been replaced by a generic landing page with a prompt to "subscribe to be the first to know when we relaunch". Shame that the article's URL doesn't work anymore after being maintained for 22 years. I imagine the domain was sold or something? https://web.archive.org/web/20200330143723/http://webreference.com/ https://web.archive.org/web/20200330143723/http://webreferen...

53 points by Lammy 4y ago

Interestingly, the same author was the first to create and publish an SGML DTD for WHATWG HTML (aka HTML 5) [1], though I believe mine [2] to be more complete and up-to-date at this point. [1]: https://jkorpela.fi/html5-dtd.html https://jkorpela.fi/html5-dtd.html [2]: http://sgmljs.net/docs/w3c-html52-dtd.html http://sgmljs.net/docs/w3c-html52-dtd.html

realist2022 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

kaichanvong 4y ago

amazing Share; "wuts-HTML?" and, "how do I learn it?". Could be, 1 of many, many schools of thought Should we all be sharing these inner questions?

karamanolev 4y ago

I had a chuckle reading the paragraph below and comparing it to the modern ecosystem of HTML5, JS, SPAs and so on: The HTML 4.0 specification is a huge, intensely technical document that contains hundreds of different elements and can have all sorts of applications. It is at times difficult to understand. This is not an error on behalf of the authors. In fact, very few people are expected to read the specification; HTML was originally intended to be a document format that the author wouldn't learn or see, but something that would be created by programs designed for this task.

hoyd 4y ago
That's amazing, thanks.
jefftk 4y ago
Note that this paragraph is not one of the "margin notes", but a quotation from the book they're reviewing. Their commentary disagrees: First, the specification can be called large, but hardly huge. It does not contain hundreds of elements, at least if the word "element" is taken in the sense that it is used in the specification. It is hardly true that very few people are expected to read it. The specification contains several introductory and tutorial parts - many of them rather good - which obviously imply that it was written for a wide audience. And the specification itself says, in its About the HTML 4.0 Specification part: > This document has been written with two types of readers in mind: authors and implementors. We hope the specification will provide authors with the tools they need to write efficient, attractive, and accessible documents, without over-exposing them to HTML's implementation details. And who says HTML was not intended to be writeable and readable by humans? There seems to a rumor that Tim Berners-Lee himself has said something like that, but if that's true, perhaps someone did not get the joke.
kaichanvong 4y ago
I know right! It's full of that kind of expression of love. It took me back to being in a club while studying. One guy, and his brother... chat lots about how they were looking forward to doing stuff. His T-Shirt was about chatting HTML, all these amazing helpful different parts, almost looked German to me. It's a part of technology, build that I appreciate from that part. Could be the Japanese film Wind Rises, I don't know

TazeTSchnitzel 4y ago

I'd never heard of the DIR and MENU elements. Hierarchical directory listings and proper menus are things I wanted browsers to natively support. I guess the spec authors tried and the implementations didn't deliver. :(

spread_love 4y ago
<dir> was deprecated but <menu> was implemented (somewhat) https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/menu https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/me...

forgotmypw17 4y ago

The amazing part about HTML and the Web is that if you carefully pare down what HTML and JS you use to the lowest common denominator, you can write a web page which works with 25 years worth of clients.

xeromal 4y ago
That is very impressive. Fun thought.
- forgotmypw17 4y ago
  Thank you. For me, it is more than a thought, I've written an entire framework for making hyper-compatible online spaces. :)

peterjmag 4y ago

The original document being commented isn't available anymore. Luckily, the Internet Archive has a copy: https://web.archive.org/web/20000517232106/http://webreference.com/dev/html4nsie/index.html https://web.archive.org/web/20000517232106/http://webreferen... Digging around a bit more, the original webreference.com (along with this article) existed until around April 2020. It's since been replaced by a generic landing page with a prompt to "subscribe to be the first to know when we relaunch". Shame that the article's URL doesn't work anymore after being maintained for 22 years. I imagine the domain was sold or something? https://web.archive.org/web/20200330143723/http://webreference.com/ https://web.archive.org/web/20200330143723/http://webreferen...