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From the title, I was hoping for something more informative than what it is. The part about historical oppression is largely accurate, but her analysis of recen

by wrp 4y ago

From the title, I was hoping for something more informative than what it is. The part about historical oppression is largely accurate, but her analysis of recent history is way off. When Ukraine became independent in 1991, ethnic Ukrainians saw their opportunity to mold a new state solely around their culture. The problem for them was the 20%-40% ethnic Russian population. There followed many years of increasing abuse of ethnic Russians and their culture.[1] For the past three decades, the Ukrainians have been doing to ethnic Russians what she accuses Putin of trying to do to Ukrainians. Before anyone accuses me of being pro-this-or-that, let my say explicitly that I have sympathy for the Ukrainians who suffered, but I have just as much sympathy for the Russians who suffered. [1] https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13642980802396838 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/1364298080239683...

eveningcoffee 4y ago
Who are ethnic Russians in Ukraine? People who moved there after WW2 and their descendants? Why is there so wide margin for the ethnic Russian population? 20-40%? This is huge difference, it is from almost nothing to almost half. Either way it is too large, as there are less than 20% of Russians in Ukraine. Even when we talk about Russians in Ukraine, it must be made clear what does it mean to be Russian. Is it somebody who self identifies itself Russian? Is it somebody who uses Russian as first language but considers itself Ukrainian? Based on what is written about this article elsewhere, it looks to be based on small number of asylum seekers who have been attacked by gangs and lack of state investigation of these events. I find both facts plausible. The question is in interpretation. Was it because of systematic repression or because of incompetence and corruption? This paper also investigates period between 1991 and 2001. It is more than 20 years back from today. A lot has changed from this time, especially since the new government in 2014. Were you for example aware that most of the Azov Battalion fighters were Russian speakers and it consisted also number of Ukrainian Jews, also among its founders? I discovered this when I tried to confirm to myself if they really are Nazis as is claimed by the Russian propaganda. Here is how Ukrainian Jews who have been working with the battalion see it https://www.timesofisrael.com/senior-zelensky-adviser-40-jewish-heroes-fighting-in-mariupol-steel-plant/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/senior-zelensky-adviser-40-jew... This article is from 2018 about the Jewish situation in Ukraine https://www.bbc.com/ukrainian/features-russian-44110741 https://www.bbc.com/ukrainian/features-russian-44110741 Historian Kamil Galeev has many very insightful Twitter threads about Ukraine and Russia (he is born in Kazan). Very deep historical perspective about this conflict https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1516162437455654913.html https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1516162437455654913.html Reflection on 8 year Donbas war effect on Ukrainian society, especially on Russian speaking one https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1504103672019513345.html https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1504103672019513345.html I would also recommend another historian and Holocaust researcher Timothy Snyder His take on Putin ideology (recent) https://snyder.substack.com/p/russias-easter-offensive https://snyder.substack.com/p/russias-easter-offensive His take on Putin ideology (2018) https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2018/03/16/ivan-ilyin-putins-philosopher-of-russian-fascism/ https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2018/03/16/ivan-ilyin-putins-p... No, Ukrainians have not done something that Putin is trying to do. No, if you say something like this, you are missing the point by miles. If you want to understand what Putin is trying to do, I recommend you to take little time and watch this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaRUepc-7 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaRUepc-7
- wrp 4y ago
  I doubt that anyone but an obsessive will bother to follow this, but for those few obsessives, I'll respond. > Why is there so wide margin for the ethnic Russian population? 20-40%? The claimed percentage of Russians in Ukraine varies a lot for two reasons. First, because it has policy implications, so people try to bend the numbers to fit their agenda. Second, ethnic identification is fuzzy. There are "ethnic Russians" whose first language is Ukrainian, and vice versa. It is agreed, though, that the Russian population has significantly declined since 1991 due to emigration. > Based on what is written about this article elsewhere... This claim needs references. A citation search for the article shows nothing like that. > ...it looks to be based on small number of asylum seekers... In part, but it also covers widespread cultural trends. This book chapter cites the article and continues the chronology: Anti-Semitism and the extreme right in contemporary Ukraine (https://www.taylorfrancis.com/chapters/edit/10.4324/9780203121924-22/anti-semitism-extreme-right-contemporary-ukraine https://www.taylorfrancis.com/chapters/edit/10.4324/97802031...) > This paper also investigates period between 1991 and 2001. It is more than 20 years back from today. A lot has changed from this time, especially since the new government in 2014. Yes, and things continued to get worse. Richard Sakwa covers this in his book, Frontline Ukraine, and in more recent articles. (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/24717077-frontline-ukraine https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/24717077-frontline-ukrai...) > Azov Battalion fighters A reminder of who they are from Armies of Russia's War in Ukraine (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/40653204-armies-of-russia-s-war-in-ukraine https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/40653204-armies-of-russi...) One of the most controversial of the volunteer battalions, Azov has simultaneously a formidable reputation as a hard‐fighting unit (blooded in the recapture of Mariupol in June 2014), and a questionable one for the far‐right politics of many of its soldiers. Its shoulder‐patch symbol recalls the Wolfsangel, once used by the Dutch volunteer unit of the Waffen‐SS. > Here is how Ukrainian Jews who have been working with the battalion see it. That interview was with "David Arakhamia, head of Kyiv’s negotiating team." What else would he say to an Israeli reporter? > Historian Kamil Galeev has many very insightful Twitter threads... I can't think of anything polite to say about Galeev's writing. He elaborates on the basic thesis of the posted article. If you agree with him, you will love the books by Taras Kuzio. (https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/908534.Taras_Kuzio https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/908534.Taras_Kuzio) I regard Kuzio as a Ukrainian ultra-nationalist, and not at all a reliable guide to history. > Holocaust researcher Timothy Snyder Whom historian Marlene Laruelle accuses of "distortions, inaccuracies, and selective interpretations." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_D._Snyder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_D._Snyder) I recognize that you may have life experiences that give you a different perspective from mine, but consider that my points are based on the scholarly literature, while your information here is derived from blog posts.
akhmatova 4y ago
For the past three decades, the Ukrainians have been doing to ethnic Russians what she accuses Putin of trying to do to Ukrainians. ... I have sympathy for the Ukrainians who suffered, but I have just as much sympathy for the Russians who suffered. It extremely, extremely difficult to see how one can even begin to consider the respective "baskets" of suffering under discussion here: - The body of (we will acknowledge) obnoxious restrictions on the use of the Russian language in official and commercial contexts; versus - Easily 4,000+ civilians killed (in just the past three months), not to mention all the rapes, mutilations, destruction of entire cities (did we mention the theatre in Mariupol, even)?, and the displacement of millions; combined with official statements at the highest levels of the Russian government blatantly stating their intention to wipe Ukrainian identity and culture off the map As being anywhere near comparable, in either scale or moral or psychological impact.
- wrp 4y ago
  ...the Ukrainians have been doing to ethnic Russians what she accuses Putin of trying to do to Ukrainians... In my post, I did not equate cultural suppression with physical violence. She accused Putin of currently trying to eliminate Ukrainian culture. I said that Ukrainians since 1991 have been trying to eliminate Russian culture within Ukraine.
  - akhmatova 4y ago
    It is definitely hyperbole to suggest that's Putin's goal, as described by the author (the overt obliteration of Ukrainian identity) is comparable to the even the worst and stupidest of the "official status" legislation passed in recent years. In my post, I did not equate cultural suppression with physical violence. As for as what's coming from the Russian side -- since Feb 24 of this year, the two have become inseparable. Russia's efforts at suppression of Ukrainian identity aren't merely legislative, and they aren't enforced by civil fines and such. They're backed by cold-blooded murder of thousands of civilians, in front of the cameras, in broad daylight. That's why there's no comparison between the spate of misguided legislative shenanigans in recent years in Ukraine - and the overt obliteration of Ukrainian identity that Putin is seeking to accomplish.

by wrp 4y ago

eveningcoffee 4y ago

Who are ethnic Russians in Ukraine? People who moved there after WW2 and their descendants? Why is there so wide margin for the ethnic Russian population? 20-40%? This is huge difference, it is from almost nothing to almost half. Either way it is too large, as there are less than 20% of Russians in Ukraine. Even when we talk about Russians in Ukraine, it must be made clear what does it mean to be Russian. Is it somebody who self identifies itself Russian? Is it somebody who uses Russian as first language but considers itself Ukrainian? Based on what is written about this article elsewhere, it looks to be based on small number of asylum seekers who have been attacked by gangs and lack of state investigation of these events. I find both facts plausible. The question is in interpretation. Was it because of systematic repression or because of incompetence and corruption? This paper also investigates period between 1991 and 2001. It is more than 20 years back from today. A lot has changed from this time, especially since the new government in 2014. Were you for example aware that most of the Azov Battalion fighters were Russian speakers and it consisted also number of Ukrainian Jews, also among its founders? I discovered this when I tried to confirm to myself if they really are Nazis as is claimed by the Russian propaganda. Here is how Ukrainian Jews who have been working with the battalion see it https://www.timesofisrael.com/senior-zelensky-adviser-40-jewish-heroes-fighting-in-mariupol-steel-plant/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/senior-zelensky-adviser-40-jew... This article is from 2018 about the Jewish situation in Ukraine https://www.bbc.com/ukrainian/features-russian-44110741 https://www.bbc.com/ukrainian/features-russian-44110741 Historian Kamil Galeev has many very insightful Twitter threads about Ukraine and Russia (he is born in Kazan). Very deep historical perspective about this conflict https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1516162437455654913.html https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1516162437455654913.html Reflection on 8 year Donbas war effect on Ukrainian society, especially on Russian speaking one https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1504103672019513345.html https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1504103672019513345.html I would also recommend another historian and Holocaust researcher Timothy Snyder His take on Putin ideology (recent) https://snyder.substack.com/p/russias-easter-offensive https://snyder.substack.com/p/russias-easter-offensive His take on Putin ideology (2018) https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2018/03/16/ivan-ilyin-putins-philosopher-of-russian-fascism/ https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2018/03/16/ivan-ilyin-putins-p... No, Ukrainians have not done something that Putin is trying to do. No, if you say something like this, you are missing the point by miles. If you want to understand what Putin is trying to do, I recommend you to take little time and watch this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaRUepc-7 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaRUepc-7

wrp 4y ago
I doubt that anyone but an obsessive will bother to follow this, but for those few obsessives, I'll respond. > Why is there so wide margin for the ethnic Russian population? 20-40%? The claimed percentage of Russians in Ukraine varies a lot for two reasons. First, because it has policy implications, so people try to bend the numbers to fit their agenda. Second, ethnic identification is fuzzy. There are "ethnic Russians" whose first language is Ukrainian, and vice versa. It is agreed, though, that the Russian population has significantly declined since 1991 due to emigration. > Based on what is written about this article elsewhere... This claim needs references. A citation search for the article shows nothing like that. > ...it looks to be based on small number of asylum seekers... In part, but it also covers widespread cultural trends. This book chapter cites the article and continues the chronology: Anti-Semitism and the extreme right in contemporary Ukraine (https://www.taylorfrancis.com/chapters/edit/10.4324/9780203121924-22/anti-semitism-extreme-right-contemporary-ukraine https://www.taylorfrancis.com/chapters/edit/10.4324/97802031...) > This paper also investigates period between 1991 and 2001. It is more than 20 years back from today. A lot has changed from this time, especially since the new government in 2014. Yes, and things continued to get worse. Richard Sakwa covers this in his book, Frontline Ukraine, and in more recent articles. (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/24717077-frontline-ukraine https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/24717077-frontline-ukrai...) > Azov Battalion fighters A reminder of who they are from Armies of Russia's War in Ukraine (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/40653204-armies-of-russia-s-war-in-ukraine https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/40653204-armies-of-russi...) One of the most controversial of the volunteer battalions, Azov has simultaneously a formidable reputation as a hard‐fighting unit (blooded in the recapture of Mariupol in June 2014), and a questionable one for the far‐right politics of many of its soldiers. Its shoulder‐patch symbol recalls the Wolfsangel, once used by the Dutch volunteer unit of the Waffen‐SS. > Here is how Ukrainian Jews who have been working with the battalion see it. That interview was with "David Arakhamia, head of Kyiv’s negotiating team." What else would he say to an Israeli reporter? > Historian Kamil Galeev has many very insightful Twitter threads... I can't think of anything polite to say about Galeev's writing. He elaborates on the basic thesis of the posted article. If you agree with him, you will love the books by Taras Kuzio. (https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/908534.Taras_Kuzio https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/908534.Taras_Kuzio) I regard Kuzio as a Ukrainian ultra-nationalist, and not at all a reliable guide to history. > Holocaust researcher Timothy Snyder Whom historian Marlene Laruelle accuses of "distortions, inaccuracies, and selective interpretations." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_D._Snyder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_D._Snyder) I recognize that you may have life experiences that give you a different perspective from mine, but consider that my points are based on the scholarly literature, while your information here is derived from blog posts.

akhmatova 4y ago

For the past three decades, the Ukrainians have been doing to ethnic Russians what she accuses Putin of trying to do to Ukrainians. ... I have sympathy for the Ukrainians who suffered, but I have just as much sympathy for the Russians who suffered. It extremely, extremely difficult to see how one can even begin to consider the respective "baskets" of suffering under discussion here: - The body of (we will acknowledge) obnoxious restrictions on the use of the Russian language in official and commercial contexts; versus - Easily 4,000+ civilians killed (in just the past three months), not to mention all the rapes, mutilations, destruction of entire cities (did we mention the theatre in Mariupol, even)?, and the displacement of millions; combined with official statements at the highest levels of the Russian government blatantly stating their intention to wipe Ukrainian identity and culture off the map As being anywhere near comparable, in either scale or moral or psychological impact.

wrp 4y ago
...the Ukrainians have been doing to ethnic Russians what she accuses Putin of trying to do to Ukrainians... In my post, I did not equate cultural suppression with physical violence. She accused Putin of currently trying to eliminate Ukrainian culture. I said that Ukrainians since 1991 have been trying to eliminate Russian culture within Ukraine.
- akhmatova 4y ago
  It is definitely hyperbole to suggest that's Putin's goal, as described by the author (the overt obliteration of Ukrainian identity) is comparable to the even the worst and stupidest of the "official status" legislation passed in recent years. In my post, I did not equate cultural suppression with physical violence. As for as what's coming from the Russian side -- since Feb 24 of this year, the two have become inseparable. Russia's efforts at suppression of Ukrainian identity aren't merely legislative, and they aren't enforced by civil fines and such. They're backed by cold-blooded murder of thousands of civilians, in front of the cameras, in broad daylight. That's why there's no comparison between the spate of misguided legislative shenanigans in recent years in Ukraine - and the overt obliteration of Ukrainian identity that Putin is seeking to accomplish.