9 ms·

France bans English gaming tech jargon in push to preserve language purity

38 points by prawn 4y ago

Spivak 4y ago
C’est poggèur! But for context the ministry has absolutely no bearing on French as real life people actually speak it. This is a body of people whose power is essentially just to maintain the government’s language style guide and issue strongly worded letters to a herd of cats who largely ignore them. So while this is technically a ban when it comes to government correspondence it could be the poster child for sensationalizing a headline.
- ksaj 4y ago
  This sort of thing is already active in Quebec, Canada, though. And it has legal teeth in the province. Even the ratio of area taken by English and French words on a bilingual sign is policed. I used to work in an Ontario tobacco farming town (English), and lots of French folks would hitchhike into town to get summer priming jobs. The term "Les chips" for potato chips was really common, but on French and bilingual labels you must use the word Croustilles. That's just one example of very many. There was damn near a panic when Contact Lenses became a commonly purchased item, because there was no French word for them. Eventually they came up with one, and you no longer hear "Le Contactlens."
  - 908B64B197 4y ago
    > you must use the word Croustilles. That's just one example of very many. Seems like it's the term they use over there. Wikipedia agrees with it [0]. > when Contact Lenses became a commonly purchased item, because there was no French word for them French wiki seems to think the correct term is just... a word by word translation of "contact lenses". Not sure what the big deal was. [1] [0] https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chips#cite_note-GDT-1 https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chips#cite_note-GDT-1 [1] https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lentilles_de_contact https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lentilles_de_contact
    - ksaj 4y ago
      The point isn't that they have or eventually have official French words for things. Its that regardless of what the actual people call it (les chips) amongst themselves, it is illegal to put that on a French product label or sign. They will literally shut you down for not being French enough if the hefty fines don't work. When contact lenses came about, for the longest time there was no French word, so Quebec folk just called it by the English name because nobody knew what the official word would finally be. Quebec has a literal Language Police. Here's an article about them harassing restaurants for writing too many English-only Facebook posts, and employing people who don't speak French well enough. https://globalnews.ca/news/8539627/quebec-language-police-bars-restaurants-complaint/ https://globalnews.ca/news/8539627/quebec-language-police-ba...
      - 908B64B197 4y ago
        I mean, isn't their country... their laws? Not sure why someone would move there and be upset about the language. Seems like it hasn't changed since... 1608? The USA is a 40 minute drive away...
- cozos 4y ago
  What does c’est poggèur mean? Is it French twitch chat?
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - rahen 4y ago
    It's gibberish.
julienreszka 4y ago
Not a ban just an official alternative people are actually seeking to prevent themselves from speaking some bastardized version of the language.
- random314 4y ago
  Languages have always been fluid with mutually unintelligible dialects. A fixed unchanging uniform national language is a modern invention.
  - ksaj 4y ago
    I'm sure television news did that. The TV News accent is so uniform across the board that even the Canadian accent is hard to distinguish on some stations. Well, you still can, but when we listen to old broadcasts, that Canadian accent freaks a lot of us oot. We're inching closer and closer to the full-blown CNN accent on Canadian TV news. Incidentally I was amused to discover that people on the west coast actually often do say "oot and aboot." Until a couple decades ago, I thought it was a myth.
    - john_the_writer 4y ago
      Listen to Sara Palen talk. She sounds very much like a Canadian.
      - ksaj 4y ago
        Yes, she does sound like a Canadian. That accent does show up in the north, and especially on the west coast. The first time I heard her speak, I thought she was Canadian. Alaska is beside northwestern Canada, so it all makes sense.
qalmakka 4y ago
The French (or rather, the Parisian) zealotry with language purity was always absolutely incomprehensible to me. All languages are bastardized versions of another one. Most are the byproduct of nationalistic fervor, an imposition mandated by the state on the populace in order to create a "single nation". France's attitude to her language is IMHO marred by deep hypocrisy and a backward, reactionary worldview of "preservation" of something that for most is just a tool. Languages live, evolve, and die. We should cherish and try to save as many as we can while giving people the tools to communicate with as many other humans as possible. It's crucial to stop languages from getting extinct, but that cannot mean that nationalistic chauvinism should be tolerated. Languages, especially smaller ones, are incredibly powerful echo chambers. To conclude, it's ironic that France tries so hard to keep French "pure" (from what, I ask myself) when France is one of the worst offenders regarding the utter hostility it has shown multiple times against the linguistic rights of minorites and regional languages. France lost any moral justification to "preserve her national language" when she failed to ratify the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages.
- busterarm 4y ago
  One only has to understand the history of France itself. The French language itself and "French identity" is the sole unifying factor tieing together a plethora of distinct cultures and languages that you recognize today as being part of France. Consider that in addition to French, you will also find the following spoken languages: Arabic, Norman, Picard, Poitevin-Saintongeais, Franco-Provencal, Occitan, Catalan, Auvergnat, Corsican, Basque, French Flemish, Lorraine Franconian, Alsatian, and Breton. The idea behind fighting to protect the French language is to protect the unifying institution binding these groups of people together in a harmonious society. France is a melting pot and the government defines France as an inclusive nation with universal values -- advocating assimilation through which immigrants are expected to adhere to French values and cultural norms. Speaking the French language and declaring yourself to be French is what counts. The government thus has an interest in defining exactly what being French is. French citizens still equate their nationality with citizenship as does French law.
  - mmarq 4y ago
zzo38computer 4y ago
I think is good if they can make up words in the language (whether it is French, English, Latin, Japanese, or something else) that they do not already have it, but only if they do not force everyone to use it. It should be by your choice only. (Even many words in English is French. You can also write in English without French words, but that also should be only if you choose to do; they shouldn't make everyone to do so even if they do not want to do. And in French, if you want to write only French words, or also English and others, it is only if you choose to do so and they shouldn't make you to do so if you do not want to do.) If the government wants to use French words even if they are not that common, then they can use the words that they want to use. They even look to see if there are already French words, so that is good, compared with not doing so. But, they should not force everyone else to do even against their choice.
- telesilla 4y ago
  It sounds like you are interested in Poul Anderson's "Ander-Saxon" english text that uses no borrowed words: French, Latin or Greek for example. Very strange but readable and really makes it clear how modern English is a melange of languages. https://anglish.fandom.com/wiki/Uncleftish_Beholding https://anglish.fandom.com/wiki/Uncleftish_Beholding For most of its being, mankind did not know what things are made of, but could only guess. With the growth of worldken, we began to learn, and today we have a beholding of stuff and work that watching bears out, both in the workstead and in daily life.
ls15 4y ago
What's the English word for "jargon"?
- OJFord 4y ago
  I was going to suggest 'terms of art', but of course that's just two French (and a German) words instead of one.
drak0n1c 4y ago
Micromanaging regulations that make business difficult (beyond comparable social democracies) is a quintessential aspect of French cultural heritage, so this move is purity-preserving in a meta sense as well.
aaron695 4y ago
rpigab 4y ago
"Government officials must replace words such as ‘e-sports’ and ‘streaming’ with approved French versions". No they don't.
rahen 4y ago
Oh, sweet, sweet irony from the British medias. How dare we keep our linguistic identity and not surrender to THEIR language in day to day conversations? I guess they surely would rejoice giving up English and using French if the roles were reversed, wouldn't they? Interestingly, I've noticed a trend here to use English words or expressions to pimp various meetings, although the terms are often used out of context and act as a decoy to hide some lack of field knowledge, or downright language skills. Ironically, the more English words they tend to use, the less is their ability to sustain a fluent conversation in English. When I communicate in English at least I try to make an effort not to sprinkle French words everywhere. I also do the same in French, and I'd rather not bastardize the language further.
- chrisseaton 4y ago
  What is wrong with loan-words in your mind? English takes a great many loan words from French without worrying about it. It's a natural part of language evolution that we embrace. It hasn't threatened the identity of English yet.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - rahen 4y ago
    Nothing wrong with loan-words. It becomes a problem though when it becomes linguistic and/or cultural imperialism (trying to undermine various cultures and languages through a more dominant one). French Canada could say a few things about that. Well, granted, English and French have a special history as they both invaded countless countries to the point those two languages eventually became spoken on all continents. I guess it's only fair when it backfires sometimes, and there's a bit of irony when it happens between those two languages in particular.
    - MathYouF 4y ago
      The first such invasion in the last millenia was that of England by the French Normans (themselves having been invaded only a generation before by Danish pagans), where French language was loosely imposed across the lands for several centuries, leading to the English we have today, majorly comprised of French loan words.
thedailymail 4y ago
It's interesting to compare this to Japan's relationship with foreign loanwords - an estimated 10% of modern Japanese comes from English [1]. The government occasionally makes noises about reining the use of foreign-derived words in official documents, but there are so many things and concepts for which a borrowed word is the only word known to most speakers using "pure" Japanese would only be more confusing. 1. https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/english-today/article/abs/errors-in-the-use-of-english-in-the-japanese-linguistic-landscape/872CC94A134D404ED3BF152086C9F9A1 https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/english-today/articl...

38 points by prawn 4y ago

C’est poggèur! But for context the ministry has absolutely no bearing on French as real life people actually speak it. This is a body of people whose power is essentially just to maintain the government’s language style guide and issue strongly worded letters to a herd of cats who largely ignore them. So while this is technically a ban when it comes to government correspondence it could be the poster child for sensationalizing a headline.

ksaj 4y ago
This sort of thing is already active in Quebec, Canada, though. And it has legal teeth in the province. Even the ratio of area taken by English and French words on a bilingual sign is policed. I used to work in an Ontario tobacco farming town (English), and lots of French folks would hitchhike into town to get summer priming jobs. The term "Les chips" for potato chips was really common, but on French and bilingual labels you must use the word Croustilles. That's just one example of very many. There was damn near a panic when Contact Lenses became a commonly purchased item, because there was no French word for them. Eventually they came up with one, and you no longer hear "Le Contactlens."
- 908B64B197 4y ago
  > you must use the word Croustilles. That's just one example of very many. Seems like it's the term they use over there. Wikipedia agrees with it [0]. > when Contact Lenses became a commonly purchased item, because there was no French word for them French wiki seems to think the correct term is just... a word by word translation of "contact lenses". Not sure what the big deal was. [1] [0] https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chips#cite_note-GDT-1 https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chips#cite_note-GDT-1 [1] https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lentilles_de_contact https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lentilles_de_contact
  - ksaj 4y ago
    The point isn't that they have or eventually have official French words for things. Its that regardless of what the actual people call it (les chips) amongst themselves, it is illegal to put that on a French product label or sign. They will literally shut you down for not being French enough if the hefty fines don't work. When contact lenses came about, for the longest time there was no French word, so Quebec folk just called it by the English name because nobody knew what the official word would finally be. Quebec has a literal Language Police. Here's an article about them harassing restaurants for writing too many English-only Facebook posts, and employing people who don't speak French well enough. https://globalnews.ca/news/8539627/quebec-language-police-bars-restaurants-complaint/ https://globalnews.ca/news/8539627/quebec-language-police-ba...
    - 908B64B197 4y ago
      I mean, isn't their country... their laws? Not sure why someone would move there and be upset about the language. Seems like it hasn't changed since... 1608? The USA is a 40 minute drive away...
cozos 4y ago
What does c’est poggèur mean? Is it French twitch chat?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- rahen 4y ago
  It's gibberish.

julienreszka 4y ago

Not a ban just an official alternative people are actually seeking to prevent themselves from speaking some bastardized version of the language.

random314 4y ago
Languages have always been fluid with mutually unintelligible dialects. A fixed unchanging uniform national language is a modern invention.
- ksaj 4y ago
  I'm sure television news did that. The TV News accent is so uniform across the board that even the Canadian accent is hard to distinguish on some stations. Well, you still can, but when we listen to old broadcasts, that Canadian accent freaks a lot of us oot. We're inching closer and closer to the full-blown CNN accent on Canadian TV news. Incidentally I was amused to discover that people on the west coast actually often do say "oot and aboot." Until a couple decades ago, I thought it was a myth.
  - john_the_writer 4y ago
    Listen to Sara Palen talk. She sounds very much like a Canadian.
    - ksaj 4y ago
      Yes, she does sound like a Canadian. That accent does show up in the north, and especially on the west coast. The first time I heard her speak, I thought she was Canadian. Alaska is beside northwestern Canada, so it all makes sense.

qalmakka 4y ago

The French (or rather, the Parisian) zealotry with language purity was always absolutely incomprehensible to me. All languages are bastardized versions of another one. Most are the byproduct of nationalistic fervor, an imposition mandated by the state on the populace in order to create a "single nation". France's attitude to her language is IMHO marred by deep hypocrisy and a backward, reactionary worldview of "preservation" of something that for most is just a tool. Languages live, evolve, and die. We should cherish and try to save as many as we can while giving people the tools to communicate with as many other humans as possible. It's crucial to stop languages from getting extinct, but that cannot mean that nationalistic chauvinism should be tolerated. Languages, especially smaller ones, are incredibly powerful echo chambers. To conclude, it's ironic that France tries so hard to keep French "pure" (from what, I ask myself) when France is one of the worst offenders regarding the utter hostility it has shown multiple times against the linguistic rights of minorites and regional languages. France lost any moral justification to "preserve her national language" when she failed to ratify the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages.

busterarm 4y ago
One only has to understand the history of France itself. The French language itself and "French identity" is the sole unifying factor tieing together a plethora of distinct cultures and languages that you recognize today as being part of France. Consider that in addition to French, you will also find the following spoken languages: Arabic, Norman, Picard, Poitevin-Saintongeais, Franco-Provencal, Occitan, Catalan, Auvergnat, Corsican, Basque, French Flemish, Lorraine Franconian, Alsatian, and Breton. The idea behind fighting to protect the French language is to protect the unifying institution binding these groups of people together in a harmonious society. France is a melting pot and the government defines France as an inclusive nation with universal values -- advocating assimilation through which immigrants are expected to adhere to French values and cultural norms. Speaking the French language and declaring yourself to be French is what counts. The government thus has an interest in defining exactly what being French is. French citizens still equate their nationality with citizenship as does French law.
- mmarq 4y ago

zzo38computer 4y ago

I think is good if they can make up words in the language (whether it is French, English, Latin, Japanese, or something else) that they do not already have it, but only if they do not force everyone to use it. It should be by your choice only. (Even many words in English is French. You can also write in English without French words, but that also should be only if you choose to do; they shouldn't make everyone to do so even if they do not want to do. And in French, if you want to write only French words, or also English and others, it is only if you choose to do so and they shouldn't make you to do so if you do not want to do.) If the government wants to use French words even if they are not that common, then they can use the words that they want to use. They even look to see if there are already French words, so that is good, compared with not doing so. But, they should not force everyone else to do even against their choice.

telesilla 4y ago
It sounds like you are interested in Poul Anderson's "Ander-Saxon" english text that uses no borrowed words: French, Latin or Greek for example. Very strange but readable and really makes it clear how modern English is a melange of languages. https://anglish.fandom.com/wiki/Uncleftish_Beholding https://anglish.fandom.com/wiki/Uncleftish_Beholding For most of its being, mankind did not know what things are made of, but could only guess. With the growth of worldken, we began to learn, and today we have a beholding of stuff and work that watching bears out, both in the workstead and in daily life.

ls15 4y ago

What's the English word for "jargon"?

OJFord 4y ago
I was going to suggest 'terms of art', but of course that's just two French (and a German) words instead of one.

drak0n1c 4y ago

Micromanaging regulations that make business difficult (beyond comparable social democracies) is a quintessential aspect of French cultural heritage, so this move is purity-preserving in a meta sense as well.

aaron695 4y ago

rpigab 4y ago

"Government officials must replace words such as ‘e-sports’ and ‘streaming’ with approved French versions". No they don't.

rahen 4y ago

Oh, sweet, sweet irony from the British medias. How dare we keep our linguistic identity and not surrender to THEIR language in day to day conversations? I guess they surely would rejoice giving up English and using French if the roles were reversed, wouldn't they? Interestingly, I've noticed a trend here to use English words or expressions to pimp various meetings, although the terms are often used out of context and act as a decoy to hide some lack of field knowledge, or downright language skills. Ironically, the more English words they tend to use, the less is their ability to sustain a fluent conversation in English. When I communicate in English at least I try to make an effort not to sprinkle French words everywhere. I also do the same in French, and I'd rather not bastardize the language further.

chrisseaton 4y ago
What is wrong with loan-words in your mind? English takes a great many loan words from French without worrying about it. It's a natural part of language evolution that we embrace. It hasn't threatened the identity of English yet.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- rahen 4y ago
  Nothing wrong with loan-words. It becomes a problem though when it becomes linguistic and/or cultural imperialism (trying to undermine various cultures and languages through a more dominant one). French Canada could say a few things about that. Well, granted, English and French have a special history as they both invaded countless countries to the point those two languages eventually became spoken on all continents. I guess it's only fair when it backfires sometimes, and there's a bit of irony when it happens between those two languages in particular.
  - MathYouF 4y ago
    The first such invasion in the last millenia was that of England by the French Normans (themselves having been invaded only a generation before by Danish pagans), where French language was loosely imposed across the lands for several centuries, leading to the English we have today, majorly comprised of French loan words.

thedailymail 4y ago

It's interesting to compare this to Japan's relationship with foreign loanwords - an estimated 10% of modern Japanese comes from English [1]. The government occasionally makes noises about reining the use of foreign-derived words in official documents, but there are so many things and concepts for which a borrowed word is the only word known to most speakers using "pure" Japanese would only be more confusing. 1. https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/english-today/article/abs/errors-in-the-use-of-english-in-the-japanese-linguistic-landscape/872CC94A134D404ED3BF152086C9F9A1 https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/english-today/articl...