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Frontend is unstable because it attracts ppl whose attention span is often lower than the one of a goldfish. Every JS frontend dev I met was speedrunning tryin

by pojzon 4y ago

Frontend is unstable because it attracts ppl whose attention span is often lower than the one of a goldfish. Every JS frontend dev I met was speedrunning trying to prove himself by "inventing something new" which in fact was already a state of art. The amount of rehashing and reinventing the wheel with new catchy names in the field is staggering. TBH, if the field wants to improve -> its time to ditch JavaScript and force Browsers to move to something that makes more sense.

lopatin 4y ago
Thank you! Part of the reason that I love these front-end threads is because inevitably somebody will make a fool of themselves by spouting anti-js-dev "backend master-race" nonsense, and this certainly did not let me down.
- pojzon 4y ago
  It would be true if I was working in backend development. I dont. JS is just not good enough for what we want it to do. Someone sooner or later has to make a decision to move further.
  - doomroot 4y ago
    No. JS is here to stay, better get used to it.
  - rschachte 4y ago
    What is JS not good enough for w.r.t front-end dev in your eyes?
- dang 4y ago
  Please don't post in the flamewar style to HN. It's not what this site is for, and it destroys what it is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - lopatin 4y ago
    Sorry dang.
tenebrisalietum 4y ago
Does WASM make more sense?
- secondcoming 4y ago
  The idea is sound, but it'll just allow mediocre JS devs write the same crap but in a multithreaded way.
oraphalous 4y ago
So your solution to the problem of the field re-inventing itself over and over is for it to... re-invent itself again.
- taneq 4y ago
  Problem: there are N competing standards…
LoveGracePeace 4y ago
Java would be my strong preference.
taneq 4y ago
To be slightly more charitable, front end attracts self-taught devs because the browser is the default dev environment on Windows and on phones/tablets and it’s far more accessible a new players than any other environment. It’s more fun to write code and make stuff up than to find and evaluate libraries (especially when said libraries are written by self-taught devs), so people tend to reinvent rather than research.
throw_m239339 4y ago
> TBH, if the field wants to improve -> its time to ditch JavaScript and force Browsers to move to something that makes more sense. Javascript was never the problem. Today there are bazillions of solutions using another language for the people who don't want to hear about Javascript. The problem is all the DOM and WebAPI available to the developer. You can potentially interact with all that in C++ if you wish, but you'll always be limited by the exact API as Javascript in the browser, by design. Fundamentally there is a mismatch between how the DOM works and how most people develop complex interactive UI, switching to another language doesn't solve that problem.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
qudat 4y ago
> The amount of rehashing and reinventing the wheel with new catchy names in the field is staggering. This is true at every layer of software development. > TBH, if the field wants to improve -> its time to ditch JavaScript and force Browsers to move to something that makes more sense. I don’t think I could disagree more. JS is a tool, swapping it out doesn’t remove the unique problems of front end development. Let’s say we switched to python for the FE. The team wants to use numpy for some of its features. Bam, 30 mb being sent over the wire for one library. What do you do? You decide that’s unacceptable and start extracting the functions from the library you are using. You realize that these functions are useful enough on their own and publish them separately on pypi. You describe the library as fast and only 1kb. Then someone else comes along and decides this is a tedious task to break up all these libraries and publish small functions as packages. They figure out a smart way to tree shake the library so only the code used gets sent over the wire. Do you see where I’m headed here? In 5 years the python ecosystem for FE development will look shockingly like JS of today. Your solution does not resonate with me because it does not address the core problems of FE development. The tool isn’t the issue, it’s what the tool is trying to solve for that is the problem.
dang 4y ago
Please don't post in the flamewar style to HN. It's not what this site is for, and it destroys what it is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

by pojzon 4y ago

lopatin 4y ago

Thank you! Part of the reason that I love these front-end threads is because inevitably somebody will make a fool of themselves by spouting anti-js-dev "backend master-race" nonsense, and this certainly did not let me down.

pojzon 4y ago
It would be true if I was working in backend development. I dont. JS is just not good enough for what we want it to do. Someone sooner or later has to make a decision to move further.
- doomroot 4y ago
  No. JS is here to stay, better get used to it.
- rschachte 4y ago
  What is JS not good enough for w.r.t front-end dev in your eyes?
dang 4y ago
Please don't post in the flamewar style to HN. It's not what this site is for, and it destroys what it is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- lopatin 4y ago
  Sorry dang.

tenebrisalietum 4y ago

Does WASM make more sense?

secondcoming 4y ago
The idea is sound, but it'll just allow mediocre JS devs write the same crap but in a multithreaded way.

oraphalous 4y ago

So your solution to the problem of the field re-inventing itself over and over is for it to... re-invent itself again.

taneq 4y ago
Problem: there are N competing standards…

LoveGracePeace 4y ago

Java would be my strong preference.

taneq 4y ago

To be slightly more charitable, front end attracts self-taught devs because the browser is the default dev environment on Windows and on phones/tablets and it’s far more accessible a new players than any other environment. It’s more fun to write code and make stuff up than to find and evaluate libraries (especially when said libraries are written by self-taught devs), so people tend to reinvent rather than research.

throw_m239339 4y ago

> TBH, if the field wants to improve -> its time to ditch JavaScript and force Browsers to move to something that makes more sense. Javascript was never the problem. Today there are bazillions of solutions using another language for the people who don't want to hear about Javascript. The problem is all the DOM and WebAPI available to the developer. You can potentially interact with all that in C++ if you wish, but you'll always be limited by the exact API as Javascript in the browser, by design. Fundamentally there is a mismatch between how the DOM works and how most people develop complex interactive UI, switching to another language doesn't solve that problem.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

qudat 4y ago

> The amount of rehashing and reinventing the wheel with new catchy names in the field is staggering. This is true at every layer of software development. > TBH, if the field wants to improve -> its time to ditch JavaScript and force Browsers to move to something that makes more sense. I don’t think I could disagree more. JS is a tool, swapping it out doesn’t remove the unique problems of front end development. Let’s say we switched to python for the FE. The team wants to use numpy for some of its features. Bam, 30 mb being sent over the wire for one library. What do you do? You decide that’s unacceptable and start extracting the functions from the library you are using. You realize that these functions are useful enough on their own and publish them separately on pypi. You describe the library as fast and only 1kb. Then someone else comes along and decides this is a tedious task to break up all these libraries and publish small functions as packages. They figure out a smart way to tree shake the library so only the code used gets sent over the wire. Do you see where I’m headed here? In 5 years the python ecosystem for FE development will look shockingly like JS of today. Your solution does not resonate with me because it does not address the core problems of FE development. The tool isn’t the issue, it’s what the tool is trying to solve for that is the problem.

dang 4y ago

Please don't post in the flamewar style to HN. It's not what this site is for, and it destroys what it is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html