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Do you think AGPL offers such protection? I think even AGPL is fine for Amazon et al, they are happy to dump the code somewhere while selling a managed service

by jitl 4y ago

Do you think AGPL offers such protection? I think even AGPL is fine for Amazon et al, they are happy to dump the code somewhere while selling a managed service with enough wrapper layers. But AGPL is toxic also for self-hosters who aren’t trying to build a managed hosting service, since it applies equally against all parties.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
rglullis 4y ago
AGPL does not require source distribution of your application, unless the AGPL code is accessed directly by your users. So, if this were AGPL and I have an closed webservice that uses this, it is in the clear.
- jitl 4y ago
  But then Amazon is free to host this as a paid service and take all the money.
  - rglullis 4y ago
    Redis is doing just fine, PostgreSQL is doing just fine. They are both real open source. The performance improvements are not worth the legal/compliance overhead of adding non-FOSS to my stack. Much less so if the performance improvements are due just to some optimization choice in the underlying system. In the next 5 years, it will be easier to have Redis adding the io_ring optimizations than for this new project to become uniquely better.
    - jitl 4y ago
      Now I’m curious where you work and how compliance requires FOSS!
      - rglullis 4y ago
        You misunderstood. What I am saying is that is precisely because I am working on projects of different sizes and potentially with different customers, I do not want to have the burden of having to check if the projects have specific compliance requirements. I have a SaaS [0], my own (AGPL, by the way) open source project [1] and also work have the occasional contract job. It's much easier to say "just use Redis because it is FOSS and it gets the job done" across the board then to try to special-case the tools based on licensing requirements. [0]: https://communick.com https://communick.com [1]: https://hub20.io https://hub20.io
  - adastra22 4y ago
    And? AGPL is not a non-commercial license. If Amazon wanted to provide such a service, they would certainly be permitted to. As long as they provided any changes they make to the the AGPL source code. The AGPL would not "infect" their hosting infrastructure.
goodpoint 4y ago
> AGPL is toxic also for self-hosters who aren’t trying to build a managed hosting service Absolutely not. First of all, you can always use any software under AGPL as released without any limitation. Secondly, if you were to make changes and release them you can still run it any way you want. Thirdly, if you are making changes for internal use, and for some reasons your really want to keep them secret, you can STILL run the database to your heart's contents as long as you don't provide it as a service to the public. AGPL is much more permissive than people think. It's just providing a degree of protection to developers and and users from patent trolls and other uncooperative entities.
- jitl 4y ago
  Exactly - the grandparent is asking “can a true copy left / Free Software license protect a young startup from Amazon reselling their software”, and my assertion is no, it cant.
  - josephcsible 4y ago
    Can you give an example of an AGPL product being resold by Amazon or someone like them?
    - adastra22 4y ago
      Mastodon is AGPL and there are various cloud hosting providers. There really aren't that many popular AGPL server software to start with though, so it's an unfairly biased question.
    - jitl 4y ago
      MongoDB is the most famous example to transition from AGPL to a closed license. MongoDB was AGPL until October 16, 2018. Since October 16, 2018, it uses Server Side Public License (SSPL), which they authored. From their FAQ: > The market is quickly moving to consume most software as a service. This is a time of incredible opportunity for open source projects, with the potential to foster a new wave of great open source server side software. The reality, however, is that once an open source project becomes interesting, it is too easy for large cloud vendors to capture all the value but contribute nothing back to the community. HN discussion from 2018: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18229452 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18229452 FAQ: https://www.mongodb.com/licensing/server-side-public-license/faq https://www.mongodb.com/licensing/server-side-public-license... Today, MongoDB is an AWS partner: https://aws.amazon.com/quickstart/architecture/mongodb/ https://aws.amazon.com/quickstart/architecture/mongodb/ The most recent notable example of open-source software going closed because of Amazon specifically is Elasticsearch, which switched from Apache to SSPL. The announcement blog post was titled "Amazon: NOT OK - why we had to change Elastic licensing". HN discussion from 2021: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25833781 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25833781 FAQ: https://www.elastic.co/pricing/faq/licensing https://www.elastic.co/pricing/faq/licensing

by jitl 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

rglullis 4y ago

AGPL does not require source distribution of your application, unless the AGPL code is accessed directly by your users. So, if this were AGPL and I have an closed webservice that uses this, it is in the clear.

jitl 4y ago
But then Amazon is free to host this as a paid service and take all the money.
- rglullis 4y ago
  Redis is doing just fine, PostgreSQL is doing just fine. They are both real open source. The performance improvements are not worth the legal/compliance overhead of adding non-FOSS to my stack. Much less so if the performance improvements are due just to some optimization choice in the underlying system. In the next 5 years, it will be easier to have Redis adding the io_ring optimizations than for this new project to become uniquely better.
  - jitl 4y ago
    Now I’m curious where you work and how compliance requires FOSS!
    - rglullis 4y ago
      You misunderstood. What I am saying is that is precisely because I am working on projects of different sizes and potentially with different customers, I do not want to have the burden of having to check if the projects have specific compliance requirements. I have a SaaS [0], my own (AGPL, by the way) open source project [1] and also work have the occasional contract job. It's much easier to say "just use Redis because it is FOSS and it gets the job done" across the board then to try to special-case the tools based on licensing requirements. [0]: https://communick.com https://communick.com [1]: https://hub20.io https://hub20.io
- adastra22 4y ago
  And? AGPL is not a non-commercial license. If Amazon wanted to provide such a service, they would certainly be permitted to. As long as they provided any changes they make to the the AGPL source code. The AGPL would not "infect" their hosting infrastructure.

goodpoint 4y ago

> AGPL is toxic also for self-hosters who aren’t trying to build a managed hosting service Absolutely not. First of all, you can always use any software under AGPL as released without any limitation. Secondly, if you were to make changes and release them you can still run it any way you want. Thirdly, if you are making changes for internal use, and for some reasons your really want to keep them secret, you can STILL run the database to your heart's contents as long as you don't provide it as a service to the public. AGPL is much more permissive than people think. It's just providing a degree of protection to developers and and users from patent trolls and other uncooperative entities.

jitl 4y ago
Exactly - the grandparent is asking “can a true copy left / Free Software license protect a young startup from Amazon reselling their software”, and my assertion is no, it cant.
- josephcsible 4y ago
  Can you give an example of an AGPL product being resold by Amazon or someone like them?
  - adastra22 4y ago
    Mastodon is AGPL and there are various cloud hosting providers. There really aren't that many popular AGPL server software to start with though, so it's an unfairly biased question.
  - jitl 4y ago
    MongoDB is the most famous example to transition from AGPL to a closed license. MongoDB was AGPL until October 16, 2018. Since October 16, 2018, it uses Server Side Public License (SSPL), which they authored. From their FAQ: > The market is quickly moving to consume most software as a service. This is a time of incredible opportunity for open source projects, with the potential to foster a new wave of great open source server side software. The reality, however, is that once an open source project becomes interesting, it is too easy for large cloud vendors to capture all the value but contribute nothing back to the community. HN discussion from 2018: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18229452 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18229452 FAQ: https://www.mongodb.com/licensing/server-side-public-license/faq https://www.mongodb.com/licensing/server-side-public-license... Today, MongoDB is an AWS partner: https://aws.amazon.com/quickstart/architecture/mongodb/ https://aws.amazon.com/quickstart/architecture/mongodb/ The most recent notable example of open-source software going closed because of Amazon specifically is Elasticsearch, which switched from Apache to SSPL. The announcement blog post was titled "Amazon: NOT OK - why we had to change Elastic licensing". HN discussion from 2021: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25833781 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25833781 FAQ: https://www.elastic.co/pricing/faq/licensing https://www.elastic.co/pricing/faq/licensing