7 ms·

Loot boxes in video games

34 points by ellen364 4y ago

WalterGR 4y ago
"This Briefing looks at calls to extend the Gambling Act to loot boxes."
jsiaajdsdaa 4y ago
Focus on knife crime, robberies, and poverty please. We can prevent kids from possible gambling after that.
- ugjka 4y ago
  And acid attacks
- pointlessone 4y ago
  Why not both? It's not like the whole government is one dude and he can't do two things at once.
  - philihp 4y ago
    Usually it can't do one thing at once.
- Aachen 4y ago
  Ah yes, the world isn't perfect yet so we can't look at anything but, uh, I'd say climate change because that's on top of my list but it doesn't seem to be on yours? I guess different people find different things important.
  - jsiaajdsdaa 4y ago
    Curious how you think that climate change will kill more people than violent crime. Perhaps you should talk to the largest corporations who are busy polluting the waters and skies? The government knows how to shut them down, where to find them, but instead they are buying stock in those companies. What a curious coincidence that Valve is a private company.
- AlexandrB 4y ago
  I'd argue gambling is robbery - just institutionalized so there's no violence.
- eterm 4y ago
  You seem to be confused about the responsibilities of the Department of Culture, Media and Sport.
  - jsiaajdsdaa 4y ago
    You seem to be confused about how governments establish budget priorities.
chongli 4y ago
Loot boxes have been defined as “features in video games which may be accessed through gameplay, or purchased with in-game items, virtual currencies, or directly with real-world money”. They often appear as chests, crates, or card packs. This definition is way too broad. It would move ALL RPGs into the category of “gambling”. The definition should be narrowed to only include real money transactions that can be (directly or indirectly) traded for loot boxes in game. We don’t regulate gambling video games as gambling. The distinction we always make is whether or not real money is involved.
- jbverschoor 4y ago
  It's been regulated for years in Japan (gacha lootboxes). Basically meant to specify the actual chance of winning
- datalopers 4y ago
  I think the key is "or purchased" being interpreted as an option but instead it's is a requirement to be one pathway to the loot boxes.
  - AlexandrB 4y ago
    This seems like the intent. Consider Overwatch loot boxes which may be earned in-game or purchased with money.
- Aachen 4y ago
  It's not clear to me whether this is a "someone somewhere once defined it as such (and we'll use this working definition to not make things unnecessarily complicated and will reserve a proper definition for after we've looked at the problem broadly)", or an actual "this is how we are defining this for legislation purposes".
  - caylus 4y ago
    This goes far beyond a "working definition" in that it encompasses literally every game that unlocks content in any way. /Some/ distinction is needed to differentiate a "loot box" from every other game mechanic. It would be like using "a metal object that can harm people" as a working definition of an assault weapon. If the definition also includes ladders, cars, and push-pins, it's far too broad to be useful in any discussion.
Auracle 4y ago
I liked the loot boxes in Rocket League. I would very occasionally plop in 5 or 10 dollars and see what I got. I was putting a lot of time in to the game, and it was a fun way to get new items. People complained. Now they have an entirely new system with “blueprints” and a store and I haven’t spent a single cent. To me, the randomness was part of the fun. I’m not going to spend $12 on a virtual pair of wheels. I’m not sure how much society should be on the hook for people’s bad habits/addictions. If it’s about protecting children, it’s probably better they learn how gambling is a losing game when there isn’t much money on the line rather than when they’re older. For adults with gambling issues it’s hard for me to empathize. How can you not tell how much money you’re losing?
- AlexandrB 4y ago
  > If it’s about protecting children, it’s probably better they learn how gambling is a losing game when there isn’t much money on the line rather than when they’re older. The same logic could be applied to alcohol consumption, but we still bar kids from buying alcohol. I think treating loot boxes as gambling strikes the right balance where they are not banned in general but also not actively being pushed on 12 year olds. The industry likes to claim that the primary driver of their loot box revenue is wealthy, adult "whales" so I don't see why they would be opposed to being classified as 18+ games - unless they're lying that is.
  - hwntw 4y ago
    So you're actually conflating two topics with that first sentence - since this is a topic from the UK government, we don't forbid alcohol consumption amongst children here (over the age of 5), only bar them from buying the alcohol. Given the topic at hand, it might be a bit more challenging to prevent children from buying loot boxes, whilst still allowing them to open them - but there is prior examples of a distinction in legality between the two.
  - Auracle 4y ago
    I've heard that binge drinking among teens and young adults is pretty limited to the United States with our high drinking age vs. Europe, so it seems the logic might hold. Perhaps there could be more limited laws where people below 18 can only spend so much per month, and those above could also potentially have a limit.
synu 4y ago
Twitch has recently added channel points and gambling to most (all?) channels. The allure of betting as a way to juice engagement is just too hard to resist in gaming it seems, even when it comes to young children.
- moonshinefe 4y ago
  Yeah, they are totally fine with gambling for sure. I was actually a bit surprised to see https://www.twitch.tv/directory/game/Slots https://www.twitch.tv/directory/game/Slots near the top of "most watched games" when I was bored the other month and wanted to see what the popular games to watch were. It's literally a bunch of whales flushing money down the drain on gambling while viewers watch it (vicarious thrills? not sure tbh as I'm not a gambler).
  - crazysim 4y ago
    Are they real whales or are they "whales"? Could it be possible that the "whales" are provided with fake money to lose?
    - eterm 4y ago
      Yes, they're almost all getting kickbacks, which I think is even worse. These people are effectively getting paid to advertise gambling to children. In some cases the odds for streamers have been rigged by the site owners so that it makes it look like winning big amounts is more likely than the reality.
- eterm 4y ago
  The big difference there is that those points aren't redeemable for anything, can't be shared and aren't funded with real money. Their slots/gambling categories are far worse, and there are far worse examples of their biggest stars encouraging real gambling.
  - synu 4y ago
    They are definitely redeemable for rewards. I’m not sure if they can be bought for cash or not yet, though.
ayngg 4y ago
This stuff is so insidious. I remember the outrage when Bethesda came out with the golden horse dlc, and now we are at a stage where people willingly accept paying money just for the small chance of getting a golden horse. Games are a big business now, and significant developer resources are spent on this type of monetization now, for a lot of games (like mobile gacha games), the core game elements almost feel like they only exist to enable the lootbox gambling loop.
- Hamuko 4y ago
  At least usually the golden horse armour lootboxes are slapped onto otherwise free games, so you're not paying $60 in order to buy a bunch of lootbox keys. Unless you buy FIFA.
sbagel 4y ago
The profits being made from loot boxes targetting children are staggering and there are powerful well funded lobbyists working to keep it that way. For some context, FIFA the football governing made $766 million in 2021, EA FIFA Ultimate team (an egrerious example of loot box monetization) brought in $1.6b in 2021. Child gambling is very lucrative.
- maccard 4y ago
  You've made a bit of a jump here by implying that all of that revenue is from children. It's definitely not scientific but a strawpoll [0] of FIFA's playerbase a few years ago shows its primary demographic is 16-25. It's reasonable to assume they're the majority of spenders in the game too. [0] https://www.reddit.com/r/FIFA/comments/2y5k8l/strawpoll_how_old_is_the_average_rfifa_user/ https://www.reddit.com/r/FIFA/comments/2y5k8l/strawpoll_how_...
  - eterm 4y ago
    You're aware that 16-25 inclues a lot of children, right?
    - maccard 4y ago
      I don't know the breakdown inside that category, but yes I am aware. It also likely includes far more adults than children. My point is that it's not a bunch of under 14 year olds playing the game, it's really much closer to 20 year olds than 15 year olds.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
bennysomething 4y ago
Loot boxes, season passes, micro transactions: I'm sure there are some great modern games but as someone who grew up in the 80s and 90s these concepts are so depressing. I remember custom skins and new maps meant downloading them for free, made by some enthusiasts. I remember trying to make my own maps in unreal ed. Servers were free to play on. Or you hosted your own. Most the games I play are from that era, I own them on gog.com now. Or on an everdrive, or emulated. Though to be fair I barely have ten minutes a day to myself usually!
Gunax 4y ago
It's not gambling and I cannot take it seriously if they cannot even get it correct. Gambling is when you receive money back. What they are describing is a black hole--you put money in and it's gone.

34 points by ellen364 4y ago

WalterGR 4y ago

"This Briefing looks at calls to extend the Gambling Act to loot boxes."

jsiaajdsdaa 4y ago

Focus on knife crime, robberies, and poverty please. We can prevent kids from possible gambling after that.

ugjka 4y ago
And acid attacks
pointlessone 4y ago
Why not both? It's not like the whole government is one dude and he can't do two things at once.
- philihp 4y ago
  Usually it can't do one thing at once.
Aachen 4y ago
Ah yes, the world isn't perfect yet so we can't look at anything but, uh, I'd say climate change because that's on top of my list but it doesn't seem to be on yours? I guess different people find different things important.
- jsiaajdsdaa 4y ago
  Curious how you think that climate change will kill more people than violent crime. Perhaps you should talk to the largest corporations who are busy polluting the waters and skies? The government knows how to shut them down, where to find them, but instead they are buying stock in those companies. What a curious coincidence that Valve is a private company.
AlexandrB 4y ago
I'd argue gambling is robbery - just institutionalized so there's no violence.
eterm 4y ago
You seem to be confused about the responsibilities of the Department of Culture, Media and Sport.
- jsiaajdsdaa 4y ago
  You seem to be confused about how governments establish budget priorities.

chongli 4y ago

Loot boxes have been defined as “features in video games which may be accessed through gameplay, or purchased with in-game items, virtual currencies, or directly with real-world money”. They often appear as chests, crates, or card packs. This definition is way too broad. It would move ALL RPGs into the category of “gambling”. The definition should be narrowed to only include real money transactions that can be (directly or indirectly) traded for loot boxes in game. We don’t regulate gambling video games as gambling. The distinction we always make is whether or not real money is involved.

jbverschoor 4y ago
It's been regulated for years in Japan (gacha lootboxes). Basically meant to specify the actual chance of winning
datalopers 4y ago
I think the key is "or purchased" being interpreted as an option but instead it's is a requirement to be one pathway to the loot boxes.
- AlexandrB 4y ago
  This seems like the intent. Consider Overwatch loot boxes which may be earned in-game or purchased with money.
Aachen 4y ago
It's not clear to me whether this is a "someone somewhere once defined it as such (and we'll use this working definition to not make things unnecessarily complicated and will reserve a proper definition for after we've looked at the problem broadly)", or an actual "this is how we are defining this for legislation purposes".
- caylus 4y ago
  This goes far beyond a "working definition" in that it encompasses literally every game that unlocks content in any way. /Some/ distinction is needed to differentiate a "loot box" from every other game mechanic. It would be like using "a metal object that can harm people" as a working definition of an assault weapon. If the definition also includes ladders, cars, and push-pins, it's far too broad to be useful in any discussion.

Auracle 4y ago

I liked the loot boxes in Rocket League. I would very occasionally plop in 5 or 10 dollars and see what I got. I was putting a lot of time in to the game, and it was a fun way to get new items. People complained. Now they have an entirely new system with “blueprints” and a store and I haven’t spent a single cent. To me, the randomness was part of the fun. I’m not going to spend $12 on a virtual pair of wheels. I’m not sure how much society should be on the hook for people’s bad habits/addictions. If it’s about protecting children, it’s probably better they learn how gambling is a losing game when there isn’t much money on the line rather than when they’re older. For adults with gambling issues it’s hard for me to empathize. How can you not tell how much money you’re losing?

AlexandrB 4y ago
> If it’s about protecting children, it’s probably better they learn how gambling is a losing game when there isn’t much money on the line rather than when they’re older. The same logic could be applied to alcohol consumption, but we still bar kids from buying alcohol. I think treating loot boxes as gambling strikes the right balance where they are not banned in general but also not actively being pushed on 12 year olds. The industry likes to claim that the primary driver of their loot box revenue is wealthy, adult "whales" so I don't see why they would be opposed to being classified as 18+ games - unless they're lying that is.
- hwntw 4y ago
  So you're actually conflating two topics with that first sentence - since this is a topic from the UK government, we don't forbid alcohol consumption amongst children here (over the age of 5), only bar them from buying the alcohol. Given the topic at hand, it might be a bit more challenging to prevent children from buying loot boxes, whilst still allowing them to open them - but there is prior examples of a distinction in legality between the two.
- Auracle 4y ago
  I've heard that binge drinking among teens and young adults is pretty limited to the United States with our high drinking age vs. Europe, so it seems the logic might hold. Perhaps there could be more limited laws where people below 18 can only spend so much per month, and those above could also potentially have a limit.

synu 4y ago

Twitch has recently added channel points and gambling to most (all?) channels. The allure of betting as a way to juice engagement is just too hard to resist in gaming it seems, even when it comes to young children.

moonshinefe 4y ago
Yeah, they are totally fine with gambling for sure. I was actually a bit surprised to see https://www.twitch.tv/directory/game/Slots https://www.twitch.tv/directory/game/Slots near the top of "most watched games" when I was bored the other month and wanted to see what the popular games to watch were. It's literally a bunch of whales flushing money down the drain on gambling while viewers watch it (vicarious thrills? not sure tbh as I'm not a gambler).
- crazysim 4y ago
  Are they real whales or are they "whales"? Could it be possible that the "whales" are provided with fake money to lose?
  - eterm 4y ago
    Yes, they're almost all getting kickbacks, which I think is even worse. These people are effectively getting paid to advertise gambling to children. In some cases the odds for streamers have been rigged by the site owners so that it makes it look like winning big amounts is more likely than the reality.
eterm 4y ago
The big difference there is that those points aren't redeemable for anything, can't be shared and aren't funded with real money. Their slots/gambling categories are far worse, and there are far worse examples of their biggest stars encouraging real gambling.
- synu 4y ago
  They are definitely redeemable for rewards. I’m not sure if they can be bought for cash or not yet, though.

ayngg 4y ago

This stuff is so insidious. I remember the outrage when Bethesda came out with the golden horse dlc, and now we are at a stage where people willingly accept paying money just for the small chance of getting a golden horse. Games are a big business now, and significant developer resources are spent on this type of monetization now, for a lot of games (like mobile gacha games), the core game elements almost feel like they only exist to enable the lootbox gambling loop.

Hamuko 4y ago
At least usually the golden horse armour lootboxes are slapped onto otherwise free games, so you're not paying $60 in order to buy a bunch of lootbox keys. Unless you buy FIFA.

sbagel 4y ago

The profits being made from loot boxes targetting children are staggering and there are powerful well funded lobbyists working to keep it that way. For some context, FIFA the football governing made $766 million in 2021, EA FIFA Ultimate team (an egrerious example of loot box monetization) brought in $1.6b in 2021. Child gambling is very lucrative.

maccard 4y ago
You've made a bit of a jump here by implying that all of that revenue is from children. It's definitely not scientific but a strawpoll [0] of FIFA's playerbase a few years ago shows its primary demographic is 16-25. It's reasonable to assume they're the majority of spenders in the game too. [0] https://www.reddit.com/r/FIFA/comments/2y5k8l/strawpoll_how_old_is_the_average_rfifa_user/ https://www.reddit.com/r/FIFA/comments/2y5k8l/strawpoll_how_...
- eterm 4y ago
  You're aware that 16-25 inclues a lot of children, right?
  - maccard 4y ago
    I don't know the breakdown inside that category, but yes I am aware. It also likely includes far more adults than children. My point is that it's not a bunch of under 14 year olds playing the game, it's really much closer to 20 year olds than 15 year olds.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

bennysomething 4y ago

Loot boxes, season passes, micro transactions: I'm sure there are some great modern games but as someone who grew up in the 80s and 90s these concepts are so depressing. I remember custom skins and new maps meant downloading them for free, made by some enthusiasts. I remember trying to make my own maps in unreal ed. Servers were free to play on. Or you hosted your own. Most the games I play are from that era, I own them on gog.com now. Or on an everdrive, or emulated. Though to be fair I barely have ten minutes a day to myself usually!

Gunax 4y ago

It's not gambling and I cannot take it seriously if they cannot even get it correct. Gambling is when you receive money back. What they are describing is a black hole--you put money in and it's gone.