4 ms·

Schools need long term turnkey solutions that offer support and someone who will pick up the phone when they call. The school district I went to used macs and y

Schools need long term turnkey solutions that offer support and someone who will pick up the phone when they call. The school district I went to used macs and you were allowed to install whatever browser you wanted on them. We used google drive or just the hard drive to store files. Forcing folks to use niche software means they cannot just use whatever the rest of the world is using when they graduate. Teachers, parents, students, etc would need to learn these new programs that they haven't used before. I don't really seen any positives to this except a feel good story about open source. Who actually knows what the costs would be? The support time? Etc. I'm sure there will be a lot of school sysadmins reading this and thinking "please just stay in your lane."

hirako2000 4y ago
Yes, that's why IT admins in public funded institutions need to be told the standard they are to follow, 80% of the "internet" runs on linux, and GUIs have filled pretty much all gaps, drivers aren't the nightmare it was 20y ago. Open source even if causing problems that dont exist with commercial solutions is worth it overall. Plus, linux support licences do exist.
- Shared404 4y ago
  > Plus, linux support licences do exist. I would much rather RH, SUSE, Canonical, Zorin, Elementary, or any other FL/OSS company get those contracts than Microsoft or Apple. Business runs on Windows because schools run on Windows.
  - compiler-guy 4y ago
    As a historical matter, this is exactly backwards. Schools chose windows because businesses used it. Linux and other unices barely even registered until the late 2000s, even at the university level, except within computer science departments. Even today, various linux UIs are somewhat behind Cinnamon ad Gnome, in fit, finish and polish. But in the 2000s it was a joke. KDE didn't appear until 1998 and it was very much a work in progress. Windows 95 had been out for three years and was leaps and bounds ahead. Every year since then has been wildly proclaimed as the "Year of the Linux Desktop". It keeps getting closer, but still isn't really there.
    - Shared404 4y ago
      Good point. I should've worded what I was trying to communicate better - the reason that businesses are stuck on Windows/MS Office is because all any "average joe" knows is Windows/MS Office. In my opinion, if we want to be able to move ahead, we need to start by educating people on how to actually use a computer, instead of being used by it. Afaict, the only way to do that is to move away from the "You may do what Microsoft/Apple say you can do" reasoning that pervades schools. That itself would require some amount of movement from Windows. Ideally, there would be a course where you learn how to use Windows/Linux/Mac and learn about other options, but as that'll never happen I would be very happy to at least see a shift from "Microsoft (and Apple if you're rich) is all there is".
- zachrip 4y ago
  If someone wants to see this happen then they should start a company which offers this as a service to schools - I've no idea if this already exists, it probably does but my point is schools don't just decide to run certain systems on their own, they meet with providers and decide which best meets their needs. Someone with this goal should try and get a spot at that table and maybe it'll actually happen.
  - pid-1 4y ago
    I've worked as a sysadmin (not a school though) and I've researched before how feasible it would be to allow a subset of my users to run Linux as their main client. The tooling simply is not there yet. Your only choice is to pay very expensive licenses to either Suse or Red Hat.
    - digisign 4y ago
      Everything at our school running over the web. This is not a barrier any longer.
  - Shared404 4y ago
    I believe Zorin Grid will be exactly that! When I first heard about it, it appeared to be more education focused and now appears to target education and enterprise. https://zorin.com/grid/ https://zorin.com/grid/
- pid-1 4y ago
  Linux dominates server side for sure, but very feel companies run Linux in the client side. In fact, the tooling used to manage Windows and Mac fleets generally doesn't even exist for Linux, or is just very bad (Active Directory, Intune, etc ...)
- compiler-guy 4y ago
  "Open source even if causing problems that dont exist with commercial solutions is worth it overall." Spoken like someone who doesn't have to deal with the day-in-day-out hassle of running it in a school environment and dealing with the lack of knowledge and support from your superiors and users.
  - hirako2000 4y ago
    I actually did that a couple of years and in a foreign country that include language barrier and all sort of logistical issues for provisioning hardware. It's more than do-able, but yes, it involves thinking over needs and filling gaps that aren't so obvious how to fill at first + training staff. But that's what education is all about so open source only, and it worked. The only commercial/closed source pieces we used are cloud solutions, even then, it could have been avoided by having just one other IT onboard to maintain self hosted alternatives, which would have cost less than the sum of the subscription services. But yea here again it would have taken some education and a bit more planning as no open source is click and play like most commercial solutions. We are bringing lack of knowledge and training to explain the current trend, what an irony given we are talking about sanctuaries of knowledge and education.
- AussieWog93 4y ago
  > Yes, that's why IT admins in public funded institutions need to be told the standard they are to follow, 80% of the "internet" runs on linux, and GUIs have filled pretty much all gaps, drivers aren't the nightmare it was 20y ago. I tried to switch to Linux a couple of years back. The GUIs were fucked, and varied so much between distributions that everybody just defaulted to the terminal anyway. Hardware support was a major PITA. Everything would "work", but there'd be random issues, like my printer (Brother colour laser) refusing to go above about 50dpi regardless of what setting I put, and some disk mounting service crashing internally if I inserted and removed my SD card reader too many times (nothing crazy, like 2-3 times over an 8 hour session). These pains were on Kubuntu. A more niche (yet still for some reason recommended) distribution that I installed broke the entire desktop environment when I tried to switch from the broken, buggy mess that was Noveau to the properly QA'd Nvidia stuff. Similar experience with my Grandpa, for what it's worth. He hated Windows 10's ads and tracking with a passion, and asked me to install Linux on his machine when Windows 7 became EOL. But nope, everything was broken.
0des 4y ago
> I'm sure there will be a lot of school sysadmins reading this Hard to read when convulsing in the fetal position.
nonrandomstring 4y ago
> Schools need long term turnkey solutions that offer support No they don't. Schools need affordable and generally available software that kids can freely download, and which are flexible and open enough to be tailored. It is ironic to label solutions that basically lock-down and lock-in student's options as "turnkey". More like "throw away the key"! > someone who will pick up the phone when they call. But no-one ever does. This harks back to the Total Cost of Ownership (TCO) FUD Microsoft were spewing in the early 00's. In 2022 we all know exactly what big-tech customer support looks like even if you pay dearly for it. Basically you're on your own, and good luck to you. > Forcing folks to use niche software Forcing anyone to use any software is wrong. Software should be a choice in the same way that religion, diet, political affiliation and our choice of friends. There is not only one way. Understanding that there are choices - alternative ways of doing things - is fundamental to innovation and should be taught to kids from a very young age. > they cannot just use whatever the rest of the world is using That is a disingenuous generalisation. There is no "rest of the world". > when they graduate. One thing I've learned over many years of teaching tech, is that by the time students graduate and get into a real job market the things that were hot when they were freshmen have moved on. Google services have been axed. Adobe versions and licenses have changed. Microsoft applications moved into the cloud and radically changed their interfaces. It is actually Free Open Source Software that retains greater stability and offers greater career value longevity, even it is is functionally poorer. > Teachers, parents, students, etc would need to learn these new programs that they haven't used before. In tech, we all have to learn new things we haven't used before, all the time. It's the nature of rapid progress. To infer that this is somehow only true of open source software is wrong. > I'm sure there will be a lot of school sysadmins reading this and thinking "please just stay in your lane." We have a massive problem with de-skilling of ICT admins at the primary, secondary, and even higher-ed levels. I believe this is a direct cause of poorer educational outcomes because the technical support staff are unable to serve needs in a rapidly advancing world that demands innovation and deeper skills than clicking boxes on a webmin panel to choose some Windows options.
npteljes 4y ago
>whatever the rest of the world is using This is exactly what Microsoft got right: establishing themselves as the standard. Their OS on the PC, their OS on the laptop, and their suite in the offices. Deals with governments, deals with schools, and then, you're the idiot if you want to use something else compared to "whatever the rest of the world is using". I do agree about turnkey solutions though. This is what MS got right, and also I think what Red Hat and Canonical got right.
balaji1 4y ago
> "please just stay in your lane." Well said. Most institutions and organizations need and would prefer turnkey long-term solutions.

hirako2000 4y ago

Yes, that's why IT admins in public funded institutions need to be told the standard they are to follow, 80% of the "internet" runs on linux, and GUIs have filled pretty much all gaps, drivers aren't the nightmare it was 20y ago. Open source even if causing problems that dont exist with commercial solutions is worth it overall. Plus, linux support licences do exist.

Shared404 4y ago
> Plus, linux support licences do exist. I would much rather RH, SUSE, Canonical, Zorin, Elementary, or any other FL/OSS company get those contracts than Microsoft or Apple. Business runs on Windows because schools run on Windows.
- compiler-guy 4y ago
  As a historical matter, this is exactly backwards. Schools chose windows because businesses used it. Linux and other unices barely even registered until the late 2000s, even at the university level, except within computer science departments. Even today, various linux UIs are somewhat behind Cinnamon ad Gnome, in fit, finish and polish. But in the 2000s it was a joke. KDE didn't appear until 1998 and it was very much a work in progress. Windows 95 had been out for three years and was leaps and bounds ahead. Every year since then has been wildly proclaimed as the "Year of the Linux Desktop". It keeps getting closer, but still isn't really there.
  - Shared404 4y ago
    Good point. I should've worded what I was trying to communicate better - the reason that businesses are stuck on Windows/MS Office is because all any "average joe" knows is Windows/MS Office. In my opinion, if we want to be able to move ahead, we need to start by educating people on how to actually use a computer, instead of being used by it. Afaict, the only way to do that is to move away from the "You may do what Microsoft/Apple say you can do" reasoning that pervades schools. That itself would require some amount of movement from Windows. Ideally, there would be a course where you learn how to use Windows/Linux/Mac and learn about other options, but as that'll never happen I would be very happy to at least see a shift from "Microsoft (and Apple if you're rich) is all there is".
zachrip 4y ago
If someone wants to see this happen then they should start a company which offers this as a service to schools - I've no idea if this already exists, it probably does but my point is schools don't just decide to run certain systems on their own, they meet with providers and decide which best meets their needs. Someone with this goal should try and get a spot at that table and maybe it'll actually happen.
- pid-1 4y ago
  I've worked as a sysadmin (not a school though) and I've researched before how feasible it would be to allow a subset of my users to run Linux as their main client. The tooling simply is not there yet. Your only choice is to pay very expensive licenses to either Suse or Red Hat.
  - digisign 4y ago
    Everything at our school running over the web. This is not a barrier any longer.
- Shared404 4y ago
  I believe Zorin Grid will be exactly that! When I first heard about it, it appeared to be more education focused and now appears to target education and enterprise. https://zorin.com/grid/ https://zorin.com/grid/
pid-1 4y ago
Linux dominates server side for sure, but very feel companies run Linux in the client side. In fact, the tooling used to manage Windows and Mac fleets generally doesn't even exist for Linux, or is just very bad (Active Directory, Intune, etc ...)
compiler-guy 4y ago
"Open source even if causing problems that dont exist with commercial solutions is worth it overall." Spoken like someone who doesn't have to deal with the day-in-day-out hassle of running it in a school environment and dealing with the lack of knowledge and support from your superiors and users.
- hirako2000 4y ago
  I actually did that a couple of years and in a foreign country that include language barrier and all sort of logistical issues for provisioning hardware. It's more than do-able, but yes, it involves thinking over needs and filling gaps that aren't so obvious how to fill at first + training staff. But that's what education is all about so open source only, and it worked. The only commercial/closed source pieces we used are cloud solutions, even then, it could have been avoided by having just one other IT onboard to maintain self hosted alternatives, which would have cost less than the sum of the subscription services. But yea here again it would have taken some education and a bit more planning as no open source is click and play like most commercial solutions. We are bringing lack of knowledge and training to explain the current trend, what an irony given we are talking about sanctuaries of knowledge and education.
AussieWog93 4y ago
> Yes, that's why IT admins in public funded institutions need to be told the standard they are to follow, 80% of the "internet" runs on linux, and GUIs have filled pretty much all gaps, drivers aren't the nightmare it was 20y ago. I tried to switch to Linux a couple of years back. The GUIs were fucked, and varied so much between distributions that everybody just defaulted to the terminal anyway. Hardware support was a major PITA. Everything would "work", but there'd be random issues, like my printer (Brother colour laser) refusing to go above about 50dpi regardless of what setting I put, and some disk mounting service crashing internally if I inserted and removed my SD card reader too many times (nothing crazy, like 2-3 times over an 8 hour session). These pains were on Kubuntu. A more niche (yet still for some reason recommended) distribution that I installed broke the entire desktop environment when I tried to switch from the broken, buggy mess that was Noveau to the properly QA'd Nvidia stuff. Similar experience with my Grandpa, for what it's worth. He hated Windows 10's ads and tracking with a passion, and asked me to install Linux on his machine when Windows 7 became EOL. But nope, everything was broken.

0des 4y ago

> I'm sure there will be a lot of school sysadmins reading this Hard to read when convulsing in the fetal position.

nonrandomstring 4y ago

> Schools need long term turnkey solutions that offer support No they don't. Schools need affordable and generally available software that kids can freely download, and which are flexible and open enough to be tailored. It is ironic to label solutions that basically lock-down and lock-in student's options as "turnkey". More like "throw away the key"! > someone who will pick up the phone when they call. But no-one ever does. This harks back to the Total Cost of Ownership (TCO) FUD Microsoft were spewing in the early 00's. In 2022 we all know exactly what big-tech customer support looks like even if you pay dearly for it. Basically you're on your own, and good luck to you. > Forcing folks to use niche software Forcing anyone to use any software is wrong. Software should be a choice in the same way that religion, diet, political affiliation and our choice of friends. There is not only one way. Understanding that there are choices - alternative ways of doing things - is fundamental to innovation and should be taught to kids from a very young age. > they cannot just use whatever the rest of the world is using That is a disingenuous generalisation. There is no "rest of the world". > when they graduate. One thing I've learned over many years of teaching tech, is that by the time students graduate and get into a real job market the things that were hot when they were freshmen have moved on. Google services have been axed. Adobe versions and licenses have changed. Microsoft applications moved into the cloud and radically changed their interfaces. It is actually Free Open Source Software that retains greater stability and offers greater career value longevity, even it is is functionally poorer. > Teachers, parents, students, etc would need to learn these new programs that they haven't used before. In tech, we all have to learn new things we haven't used before, all the time. It's the nature of rapid progress. To infer that this is somehow only true of open source software is wrong. > I'm sure there will be a lot of school sysadmins reading this and thinking "please just stay in your lane." We have a massive problem with de-skilling of ICT admins at the primary, secondary, and even higher-ed levels. I believe this is a direct cause of poorer educational outcomes because the technical support staff are unable to serve needs in a rapidly advancing world that demands innovation and deeper skills than clicking boxes on a webmin panel to choose some Windows options.

npteljes 4y ago

>whatever the rest of the world is using This is exactly what Microsoft got right: establishing themselves as the standard. Their OS on the PC, their OS on the laptop, and their suite in the offices. Deals with governments, deals with schools, and then, you're the idiot if you want to use something else compared to "whatever the rest of the world is using". I do agree about turnkey solutions though. This is what MS got right, and also I think what Red Hat and Canonical got right.

balaji1 4y ago

> "please just stay in your lane." Well said. Most institutions and organizations need and would prefer turnkey long-term solutions.