6 ms·

Language shaping the way you think always feels off to me. Most languages are pretty much universal and unbiased and are capable of expressing an infinite amoun

Language shaping the way you think always feels off to me. Most languages are pretty much universal and unbiased and are capable of expressing an infinite amount of concepts. As easily as their negations, subtle variations, contextual dependencies, nuances, etc.

s_dev 4y ago
SQL and HTML/CSS and C and bash are all Turing complete. However we can easily see some languages are a better suited to expressing certain types of ideas than others. If this is true for formal languages -- why would wouldn't this phenomena be accentuated at the natural language level.
anbende 4y ago
The hard version of this, sometimes called Strong Whorfianism (after the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis) is relatively easy to discredit. Imagine a system of gears. Turn them and adjust them in your mind. You’re thinking in images rather than language. The soft version of this, that our thinking is influenced by the limits of language is almost certainly true. To give a very HN example, think about the work done in different programming languages or stacks. The way you think about a problem and how to solve it will be influenced by the language and tools you use (and know). You learn to think in a particular language or tool set. That doesn’t mean that you can’t think outside of it, but it does mean that there is a tendency to stay inside of it, inside the structures you know. In the same way, some languages lend themselves more readily to certain culturally prevalent concepts. More nuanced words for snow or love, different color boundaries, different emotion words or nuances, etc. I ran into this often when learning French as an emotion researcher. I’d try to express a scientific conception of a mood or emotion from English, and the French speaker would suggest a translation but it clearly didn’t mean exactly what I was going for. And the way the French speaker would push back was interesting, “we wouldn’t say it like that, we’d say it like this”. But the “this” and “that” were not exactly the same. I was watching us both be constrained by our language context. It could be pushed through, but the tendency was to just move forward as if we’d reached common ground but hadn’t fully.
- ArnoVW 4y ago
  I tended to agree with the soft version. But I just realized, what it's saying is that you need to know about a concept. The language is not necessary. In theory you can imagine a concept, not give it a name, and still use it. You can't communicate it through, which severely limits it's use. And somehow I suspect that naming the concept makes it easier to manipulate, so perhaps that is a 'weak' version of the theory?
  - kergonath 4y ago
    It also would not be propagated along with the culture, which is the hypothesis at its core: not that people of one given language are incapable of understanding some concepts, but rather that their cultural bagage tends to bias them and shape their way of thinking (which I would think is obviously true to anyone who’s ever lived in a foreign country or read literature or news articles in a foreign language).
    - Retric 4y ago
      The constant creation of new words for new things and concepts seems to limit that idea. Only dead languages are static, otherwise they can all adapt to new ideas as long as their sufficiently useful.
      - kergonath 4y ago
        It is not incompatible, the time scales involved are different.
        Retric 4y ago
        By limit I mean the scope of it’s impact is limited. If new ideas become new words then language isn’t a limitation on idea formation, expression, or spread. Sure some ideas might spread more easily as say an obvious and catchy campaign slogan, there is a maximum benefit to such advantages. “A fair day’s wage for a fair day’s work” is longer say “No taxation without representation” but number of works doesn’t seem to be a major limitation here. People just encode such ideas into otherwise meaningless slogans like “Promises Kept.” Soon people don’t wonder what “The wage gap” or “Pro life” is referring to.
kergonath 4y ago
> Most languages are pretty much universal and unbiased and are capable of expressing an infinite amount of concepts. Yes, most of them are (or can be, with the addition of a couple of neologisms or borrowings). Just like you can do anything with any Turing-complete language. Languages and cultures still have biases and built-in world views. For example, to most Europeans, the idea that you would need to estimate your social rank to properly address someone is utterly alien. In the best case, there is a polite form, which we also use for people we don’t know. So we don’t even think about social status when we ask someone what time it is. But there are languages where that isn’t the case at all, and this tends to make you constantly aware of the social status of the people around you. So it definitely does affect how tou think about things. It does not mean that Europeans are incapable of understanding these things, just that it is not something they implicitly care about.
- hprotagonist 4y ago
  > For example, to most Europeans, the idea that you would need to estimate your social rank to properly address someone is utterly alien. A phenomenon that is, at best, about a century old. Maybe. That there aren’t grammatical forms or special declensions of words that signal rank relationships (as there are in, say, japanese) does not for an instant mean that we do not consciously choose linguistic styles based on social structure. Especially in Europe.
  - kmonsen 4y ago
    In Norwegian you still have to address the king with a more polite pronoun, my grandmother would use this pronoun generally for richer people. As I understand in Swedish you still need to know someone’s progression to address them politely “how would the software engineer like his coffee?” Edit: also in Norway most women would wear head coverings when outside 100 years ago. We are not that far from having a culture most of us despise today.
  - mistermann 4y ago
    > That there aren’t grammatical forms or special declensions of words that signal rank relationships (as there are in, say, japanese) does not for an instant mean that we do not consciously choose linguistic styles based on social structure. Especially in Europe. Is it then logical to conclude that in the general area of the topic of discussion, there is in fact no noteworthy difference between Japanese and other cultures? There is nothing that exists in reality within this domain that has escaped the gaze of science?
s1artibartfast 4y ago
Relatedly, there are known neurological differences in the brains of different language speakers impacting how they process information and where. Stokes in the same location can have different impacts based on the language of the speaker. This suggests there are architectural and processing differences.

s_dev 4y ago

SQL and HTML/CSS and C and bash are all Turing complete. However we can easily see some languages are a better suited to expressing certain types of ideas than others. If this is true for formal languages -- why would wouldn't this phenomena be accentuated at the natural language level.

anbende 4y ago

The hard version of this, sometimes called Strong Whorfianism (after the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis) is relatively easy to discredit. Imagine a system of gears. Turn them and adjust them in your mind. You’re thinking in images rather than language. The soft version of this, that our thinking is influenced by the limits of language is almost certainly true. To give a very HN example, think about the work done in different programming languages or stacks. The way you think about a problem and how to solve it will be influenced by the language and tools you use (and know). You learn to think in a particular language or tool set. That doesn’t mean that you can’t think outside of it, but it does mean that there is a tendency to stay inside of it, inside the structures you know. In the same way, some languages lend themselves more readily to certain culturally prevalent concepts. More nuanced words for snow or love, different color boundaries, different emotion words or nuances, etc. I ran into this often when learning French as an emotion researcher. I’d try to express a scientific conception of a mood or emotion from English, and the French speaker would suggest a translation but it clearly didn’t mean exactly what I was going for. And the way the French speaker would push back was interesting, “we wouldn’t say it like that, we’d say it like this”. But the “this” and “that” were not exactly the same. I was watching us both be constrained by our language context. It could be pushed through, but the tendency was to just move forward as if we’d reached common ground but hadn’t fully.

ArnoVW 4y ago
I tended to agree with the soft version. But I just realized, what it's saying is that you need to know about a concept. The language is not necessary. In theory you can imagine a concept, not give it a name, and still use it. You can't communicate it through, which severely limits it's use. And somehow I suspect that naming the concept makes it easier to manipulate, so perhaps that is a 'weak' version of the theory?
- kergonath 4y ago
  It also would not be propagated along with the culture, which is the hypothesis at its core: not that people of one given language are incapable of understanding some concepts, but rather that their cultural bagage tends to bias them and shape their way of thinking (which I would think is obviously true to anyone who’s ever lived in a foreign country or read literature or news articles in a foreign language).
  - Retric 4y ago
    The constant creation of new words for new things and concepts seems to limit that idea. Only dead languages are static, otherwise they can all adapt to new ideas as long as their sufficiently useful.
    - kergonath 4y ago
      It is not incompatible, the time scales involved are different.
      - Retric 4y ago
        By limit I mean the scope of it’s impact is limited. If new ideas become new words then language isn’t a limitation on idea formation, expression, or spread. Sure some ideas might spread more easily as say an obvious and catchy campaign slogan, there is a maximum benefit to such advantages. “A fair day’s wage for a fair day’s work” is longer say “No taxation without representation” but number of works doesn’t seem to be a major limitation here. People just encode such ideas into otherwise meaningless slogans like “Promises Kept.” Soon people don’t wonder what “The wage gap” or “Pro life” is referring to.

kergonath 4y ago

> Most languages are pretty much universal and unbiased and are capable of expressing an infinite amount of concepts. Yes, most of them are (or can be, with the addition of a couple of neologisms or borrowings). Just like you can do anything with any Turing-complete language. Languages and cultures still have biases and built-in world views. For example, to most Europeans, the idea that you would need to estimate your social rank to properly address someone is utterly alien. In the best case, there is a polite form, which we also use for people we don’t know. So we don’t even think about social status when we ask someone what time it is. But there are languages where that isn’t the case at all, and this tends to make you constantly aware of the social status of the people around you. So it definitely does affect how tou think about things. It does not mean that Europeans are incapable of understanding these things, just that it is not something they implicitly care about.

hprotagonist 4y ago
> For example, to most Europeans, the idea that you would need to estimate your social rank to properly address someone is utterly alien. A phenomenon that is, at best, about a century old. Maybe. That there aren’t grammatical forms or special declensions of words that signal rank relationships (as there are in, say, japanese) does not for an instant mean that we do not consciously choose linguistic styles based on social structure. Especially in Europe.
- kmonsen 4y ago
  In Norwegian you still have to address the king with a more polite pronoun, my grandmother would use this pronoun generally for richer people. As I understand in Swedish you still need to know someone’s progression to address them politely “how would the software engineer like his coffee?” Edit: also in Norway most women would wear head coverings when outside 100 years ago. We are not that far from having a culture most of us despise today.
- mistermann 4y ago
  > That there aren’t grammatical forms or special declensions of words that signal rank relationships (as there are in, say, japanese) does not for an instant mean that we do not consciously choose linguistic styles based on social structure. Especially in Europe. Is it then logical to conclude that in the general area of the topic of discussion, there is in fact no noteworthy difference between Japanese and other cultures? There is nothing that exists in reality within this domain that has escaped the gaze of science?

s1artibartfast 4y ago

Relatedly, there are known neurological differences in the brains of different language speakers impacting how they process information and where. Stokes in the same location can have different impacts based on the language of the speaker. This suggests there are architectural and processing differences.