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> I remember my grandfather in Vegas lamenting that allowing people to wear trashy street clothes or anything less than formal wear / suit and tie into the casi

> I remember my grandfather in Vegas lamenting that allowing people to wear trashy street clothes or anything less than formal wear / suit and tie into the casinos, or on airplanes, would lead to more and more bad behavior. This seemed incredibly uncool and old-fashioned at the time, but it turns out he was right. I don't agree at all. A huge amount has changed since airlines enforced formal wear - for example, I can fly to Prague/Budapest/Amsterdam for under €30 from most of Europe, and I can fly return to New York from London for less than weeks wages of minimum wage. > This struck me with full force when I was invited to the Magic Castle in LA, one of the last venues to require formal wear at all times. One of the most magical things about that place is how it transforms a whole range of everyday visitors who might be people you wouldn't want to hang out with at their local bar into highly civilized men and women on their tip-top behavior. What makes you think that the dress code is what made them behave, and not that they were invited by someone who put their neck out for them, or the $50 cover charge, or the $20 drinks? Anecdotally, I've seen plenty of people behaving terribly in formalwear over the years.

noduerme 4y ago
>> I can fly to Prague/Budapest/Amsterdam for under €30 The three flights guaranteed to have a stag party. The common way to look at this is that flying has gotten cheaper. Another way to look at - the way the Soviets would have looked at it - is that the masses have gotten much wealthier. So if you agree that rich people are not necessarily better-behaved than poor people, and that anyone who can afford to fly for vacation is wealthy by the standards of 40 years ago, then there's some other explanation for why people feel alright making complete asses of themselves on RyanAir. I submit that when people feel like trash, they act like trash. When they feel like they're shown respect, they act with respect. When the people around you are dressed formally it's a sign of respect for the place and for each other, which creates a circle of respectful behavior. This is why in my grandfather's time even the poorest folks had "Sunday clothes" and acted a certain way in them. Certain activities like flying or going to a casino called for your Sunday best.
- maccard 4y ago
  > The three flights guaranteed to have a stag party. I deliberately picked them as textbook examples. I can fly to pretty much anywhere in Europe for under £50 return. Air travel has gotten incredibly cheap - last time I flew back to Ireland it cost me as much to get to the airport than it did to fly. > When the people around you are dressed formally it's a sign of respect for the place and for each other, which creates a circle of respectful behavior. And yet formalwear is often seen at parties, weddings, work holiday nights. Go to a bar in Manhattan, Vegas,LA where people are wearing dresses and suits that cost as much as my car and see the behaviour. > This is why in my grandfather's time even the poorest folks had "Sunday clothes" and acted a certain way in them. They behaved a certain way because of the environment they were in, not because of how they were dressed. It was, and still would be unacceptable to show up to church being loud and boisterous, and in my time attending s church(albeit it's been about 20 years) I don't ever recall seeing anyone removed or acting out other than children, despite wearing "normal" clothes.
  - noduerme 4y ago
    Weddings and funerals are the only places where it's still required, and there's quite a bit of bad behavior around both. What those have in common is that no one wants to go to them. That's not the same thing as choosing to go to a place where you're intentionally participating in a social act larger than a family gathering, with people you don't know, and where you're making a statement beforehand that you're a person of standards acting on your best behavior. For instance, since I was 25 (I'm in my 40s), I've worn a suit, tie and sometimes a vest whenever I travel internationally. Especially aboard a train. I learned this when I was a poor traveler living from hostel to hostel, and camping. You will be surprised how you're treated if you dress well. You're showing respect to the people around you. I think you're willfully missing the point I'm making, which is that the act of putting on better-than-your-usual garments is just one part of a whole set of customs which signal behavioral ideas that society has completely chosen to forget. The problems with social media could be solved by moderating and kicking people off. The problems with casinos and airlines could be solved by rejecting people who don't take the time to look in the mirror. Those people aren't owed a flight, a seat at a blackjack table, or a voice on a private social media platform. These problems are all of a single piece. You have to earn a position in society by your bearing and actions and speech. No one is owed it. No one is born "noble" and no one rich is born with what we call class. But take a man who works in a clothing factory 6 days a week, and tell him he's going to see a show in Las Vegas: The man will buy a suit. And he will keep that suit in the closet for the rest of his life and say: That's the suit I wore to the show in Las Vegas! He wants to have class. These experiences are not supposed to be cheap. They're important and memorable precisely because they are expensive. No one learns good behavior without receiving a certain amount of social disdain for bad behavior. The rituals and clothing and the imaginary world of luxe that we clothe ourselves in is for each other's and our own benefit; this is the meaning of civilization. What we have now is a kind of barbarism, with people barely worth the air they breathe. Put a suit on the man and see if he can stand and act like a man.
sleightofmind 4y ago
>What makes you think that the dress code is what made them behave... Well, for me, it's a lifetime (nearly) of observing how people who dress up for an occasion behave as opposed to those who don't. Churches would make for an interesting exploration in regards to this topic, some still dress, many don't. I don't think your points your other three points are invalid, though. I didn't know that the Castle had become so expensive. I was a member for about three years in the 80's. At the time, as a blue-collar stiff, I found it quite affordable -- of course, I paid no cover charge. While some hoped to see celebrities there, a not infrequent occurrence, I was thrilled to meet close-up magic icons like John Carney, Derek Dingle, and Dai Vernon, and to watch many other notables such as Daryl, Bruce Cervon, Eugene Burger, Paul Harris, and Earl Nelson. One day, a couple of blocks over, at Hollywood Magic (a magic retailer) I watched Harry Anderson of Night Court fame, throwing three-card monte on the customer side of the counter while holding his three-year-old daughter in one arm as he did it -- perhaps he just stood her on the counter with his arm around her as he threw? Not sure, it's been many years. Despite, being very familiar with the sleight, I could not follow the movement of the queen any better than any mark would/could. He was about as humble as they come, and I couldn't have cared much less about his celebrity, but I sure was impressed with his technique.
- maccard 4y ago
  > I didn't know that the Castle had become so expensive. I've only been once as an invite, from what I recall it was ~$50 for the cover charge, we paid about ~$50 a head per meal, and spent probably another ~$100 on drinks each. It was a unique evening, I had a great time, and wouldn't take it back, but it was definitely one of the more expensive evenings I had in LA.
  - noduerme 4y ago
    Any nice bar in LA is costly, but for what it is there really aren't a lot of other places on Earth like the Magic Castle. You could easily toss away the money you'd spend in a night there in 30 minutes waiting at the Bellagio to see a Cirque show. Short take: Going to the Magic Castle is roughly equivalent to flying on the Concorde. It's an expense well worth it for an unforgettable experience. [edit: yeah, I'm not dead, I know the Concorde isn't around anymore but that's the point]

noduerme 4y ago

>> I can fly to Prague/Budapest/Amsterdam for under €30 The three flights guaranteed to have a stag party. The common way to look at this is that flying has gotten cheaper. Another way to look at - the way the Soviets would have looked at it - is that the masses have gotten much wealthier. So if you agree that rich people are not necessarily better-behaved than poor people, and that anyone who can afford to fly for vacation is wealthy by the standards of 40 years ago, then there's some other explanation for why people feel alright making complete asses of themselves on RyanAir. I submit that when people feel like trash, they act like trash. When they feel like they're shown respect, they act with respect. When the people around you are dressed formally it's a sign of respect for the place and for each other, which creates a circle of respectful behavior. This is why in my grandfather's time even the poorest folks had "Sunday clothes" and acted a certain way in them. Certain activities like flying or going to a casino called for your Sunday best.

maccard 4y ago
> The three flights guaranteed to have a stag party. I deliberately picked them as textbook examples. I can fly to pretty much anywhere in Europe for under £50 return. Air travel has gotten incredibly cheap - last time I flew back to Ireland it cost me as much to get to the airport than it did to fly. > When the people around you are dressed formally it's a sign of respect for the place and for each other, which creates a circle of respectful behavior. And yet formalwear is often seen at parties, weddings, work holiday nights. Go to a bar in Manhattan, Vegas,LA where people are wearing dresses and suits that cost as much as my car and see the behaviour. > This is why in my grandfather's time even the poorest folks had "Sunday clothes" and acted a certain way in them. They behaved a certain way because of the environment they were in, not because of how they were dressed. It was, and still would be unacceptable to show up to church being loud and boisterous, and in my time attending s church(albeit it's been about 20 years) I don't ever recall seeing anyone removed or acting out other than children, despite wearing "normal" clothes.
- noduerme 4y ago
  Weddings and funerals are the only places where it's still required, and there's quite a bit of bad behavior around both. What those have in common is that no one wants to go to them. That's not the same thing as choosing to go to a place where you're intentionally participating in a social act larger than a family gathering, with people you don't know, and where you're making a statement beforehand that you're a person of standards acting on your best behavior. For instance, since I was 25 (I'm in my 40s), I've worn a suit, tie and sometimes a vest whenever I travel internationally. Especially aboard a train. I learned this when I was a poor traveler living from hostel to hostel, and camping. You will be surprised how you're treated if you dress well. You're showing respect to the people around you. I think you're willfully missing the point I'm making, which is that the act of putting on better-than-your-usual garments is just one part of a whole set of customs which signal behavioral ideas that society has completely chosen to forget. The problems with social media could be solved by moderating and kicking people off. The problems with casinos and airlines could be solved by rejecting people who don't take the time to look in the mirror. Those people aren't owed a flight, a seat at a blackjack table, or a voice on a private social media platform. These problems are all of a single piece. You have to earn a position in society by your bearing and actions and speech. No one is owed it. No one is born "noble" and no one rich is born with what we call class. But take a man who works in a clothing factory 6 days a week, and tell him he's going to see a show in Las Vegas: The man will buy a suit. And he will keep that suit in the closet for the rest of his life and say: That's the suit I wore to the show in Las Vegas! He wants to have class. These experiences are not supposed to be cheap. They're important and memorable precisely because they are expensive. No one learns good behavior without receiving a certain amount of social disdain for bad behavior. The rituals and clothing and the imaginary world of luxe that we clothe ourselves in is for each other's and our own benefit; this is the meaning of civilization. What we have now is a kind of barbarism, with people barely worth the air they breathe. Put a suit on the man and see if he can stand and act like a man.

sleightofmind 4y ago

>What makes you think that the dress code is what made them behave... Well, for me, it's a lifetime (nearly) of observing how people who dress up for an occasion behave as opposed to those who don't. Churches would make for an interesting exploration in regards to this topic, some still dress, many don't. I don't think your points your other three points are invalid, though. I didn't know that the Castle had become so expensive. I was a member for about three years in the 80's. At the time, as a blue-collar stiff, I found it quite affordable -- of course, I paid no cover charge. While some hoped to see celebrities there, a not infrequent occurrence, I was thrilled to meet close-up magic icons like John Carney, Derek Dingle, and Dai Vernon, and to watch many other notables such as Daryl, Bruce Cervon, Eugene Burger, Paul Harris, and Earl Nelson. One day, a couple of blocks over, at Hollywood Magic (a magic retailer) I watched Harry Anderson of Night Court fame, throwing three-card monte on the customer side of the counter while holding his three-year-old daughter in one arm as he did it -- perhaps he just stood her on the counter with his arm around her as he threw? Not sure, it's been many years. Despite, being very familiar with the sleight, I could not follow the movement of the queen any better than any mark would/could. He was about as humble as they come, and I couldn't have cared much less about his celebrity, but I sure was impressed with his technique.

maccard 4y ago
> I didn't know that the Castle had become so expensive. I've only been once as an invite, from what I recall it was ~$50 for the cover charge, we paid about ~$50 a head per meal, and spent probably another ~$100 on drinks each. It was a unique evening, I had a great time, and wouldn't take it back, but it was definitely one of the more expensive evenings I had in LA.
- noduerme 4y ago
  Any nice bar in LA is costly, but for what it is there really aren't a lot of other places on Earth like the Magic Castle. You could easily toss away the money you'd spend in a night there in 30 minutes waiting at the Bellagio to see a Cirque show. Short take: Going to the Magic Castle is roughly equivalent to flying on the Concorde. It's an expense well worth it for an unforgettable experience. [edit: yeah, I'm not dead, I know the Concorde isn't around anymore but that's the point]