10 ms·

The industry has been sizing kayak paddles wrong

108 points by troydavis 4y ago

neves 4y ago
Would it impact Standup Paddlers?
edrxty 4y ago
Funny enough, rowing, in all it's Olympic glory still isn't sure what the optimal oar size or length is. There's some contention over what the right surface area and geometry is with many higher performance groups using older designs now as they feel the current generation is oversized and with too short a shaft.
- ghaff 4y ago
  Of course, the "right" answer for racing may not be the same as for someone doing relatively recreational paddling. I assume it's very situational--including for the individual involved.
  - edrxty 4y ago
    Recreational paddlers generally aren't going to notice a difference at all. The issue is balancing losses from force vectors, the blades pushing and pulling towards/away from each other at the extremes of the stroke, and fluid dynamics where the larger blade has higher flat plate drag and wastes less energy as turbulence around the periphery. You can't have both without making special (wider pin spread) rigging for the boat which oddly hasn't been played around with much..... Also of note, lightweight women through open weight men use the same blade area and very similar spread/inboard/outboard measurements. There hasn't been much interest in tailoring the rigging to athletes due to equipment expense and availability limitations, even at the Olympic level.
    - mhh__ 4y ago
      In Olympic sabre fencing men and women use the same timings which can mean that the women's bouts are actually a fair bit more interesting to watch sometimes because they're slower and more likely to make mistakes whereas the men's game is a finely tuned collision at high speed in the middle of the piste (i.e. unless you fence regularly you'll have no idea what's going on)
- taneq 4y ago
  I wonder what their advice on the optimal shoe size would be?
- lmcorrigan0 4y ago
  Olympic rower here - You're right there has been a shift towards Concept2 Comp blades in sculling (and with that a reconfiguration of oar, inboard, and outboard length). It seems sweeping is still firmly committed to big blades and I would say the oar length is fairly standardized in boat classes within ~1cm. It will be interesting to see how many scullers (or sweepers) adopt the comp blades at the next World Championships and Olympics. I wouldn't consider those blades an "older" design, though feel free to correct me as I may not know my history here.
boznz 4y ago
I wonder how many other "assumptions" out there are also fucked up ?
ghaff 4y ago
I'm a bit unsure about "the industry" here. It's probably true that whitewater paddlers, as the article suggests, tend to go with shorter paddles than are generally ideal for sea kayak touring. Generally speaking, longer shaft paddles have been available, but it may well be the case that a lot of people don't go with them because it doesn't feel natural based on how they learned to paddle. (I agree with the basic point that, for sea kayaking, you mostly want to keep your hands fairly low and have a relatively long paddle. There's also a whole discussion around blade shapes but that's a topic for another day.) ADDED: I did do a fair amount of sea kayaking instruction at one point and the inclination of a lot of students is definitely to hold their hands high and dig in whether because of previous whitewater kayaking, canoeing, fun-yaks, or other reasons.
- palmetieri2000 4y ago
  Hi mate! I'm super interested in this topic. Why is having a long paddle with fairly low hands beneficial for sea kayaking? Do you have any resources you think are good quality that I could find somewhere? Thanks!
  - japhyr 4y ago
    In sea kayaking you're usually going longer distances, so being able to get into a steady efficient rhythm is important. Quick maneuverability is important, but it's not the highest priority. Wind also comes up a lot in sea kayaking, and being able to keep your paddle low is helpful.
    - taneq 4y ago
      Also unless something's gone horribly wrong you're less likely to need to push off the bottom or fit your oar between your kayak and nearby rocks.
  - ghaff 4y ago
    I don't have any specific resources but it's really an energy and muscle group thing. When you paddle--and this is broadly true although maybe more specific to sea kayak touring than other things--you're not primarily using your arms. You're essentially keeping your hands in a fairly fixed location and rotating your upper body to supply the needed force. (Though this applies to canoeing as well.) Some of the classic books by the likes of Nigel Foster are probably still applicable but I haven't looked at them in years.
tormeh 4y ago
What I don't get is why one oar is rotated 90 degrees off the other one. It means whenever I use these double-sided paddles I have to rotate them ever so slightly whenever I make a new stroke. It's annoying and I don't understand why it's done. Does anyone know?
- lkschubert8 4y ago
  Last I remember looking into it is the hard 90 degree offset is for wind resistance in open water.
  - handmodel 4y ago
    This is why it's done but still sorta of strange to me that this was the way I was taught by camp instructors - even though we never were going for speed. Feels a bit like learning how to ride a bike with one of those aerodynamic helmets even if you aren't really ready to learn racing technique yet. https://www.sportsperformancebulletin.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/helmet.jpg https://www.sportsperformancebulletin.com/wp-content/uploads...
    - ghaff 4y ago
      It's not just racing. Feathering paddles can be really useful generally if wind picks up and you're actively fighting it. Otherwise you're dealing with a lot of resistance with the paddle blade in the air. And I assume there are instructors who just want to instill feathered paddles as the norm you should expect. I generally disagree but lots of people with more experience than I have don't.
  - ghaff 4y ago
    Yes. It's called feathering. In general, I prefer to unfeather my paddles. (Many good paddles can be adjusted--modula small surface area Greenland paddles.) But there's also an argument that you shouldn't change your paddle orientation so that you can do bracing and other manoeuvres by reflex.
- stevesimmons 4y ago
stevesimmons 4y ago
A slightly strange article, whose premise feels like a strawman. I've paddled a ton of whitewater, sprint, marathon, canoe polo, touring and sea kayaking. The only time I ever cared about total length (rather than shaft length) was when I was a canoe polo goalie, and wanted to balance reaching the top corners of the goal (long) with fast acceleration and turns (shorter).
- smegsicle 4y ago
  someone posts one article on kayaking and the hn canoe polo people just come out of the gd woodwork
  - stevesimmons 4y ago
    canoe polo is kayaking, no?
- spydum 4y ago
  I'm pretty sure all the big box sporting retailers sell based off total length though? I thought his point was total length is wrong, it's shaft length which matters. Paddle shape and length are independent and surprisingly uncorrelated.
- ummonk 4y ago
  The claim in the article is that manufacturers focus on specifying total length instead of shaft length.
TedShiller 4y ago
swayvil 4y ago
I imagine many frustrating arguments. Truth is dictated by authority. That's just how our society works. For like 10,000 years. Scientific enlightenment notwithstanding. Like a network of solipsists. If the authority told us to cut off our nose we'd be a 90% noseless population inside a week.
_trampeltier 4y ago
Does remember me on the story from 2019, in which side a windturbine should rotated. They are all wrong, if they would rotate in the other direction (north from equator) it would be much better (the paper said +11 to 20% better). So allways ask, why is is so since ever ..
- taneq 4y ago
  A quick search turned up this paper: https://wes.copernicus.org/articles/5/1623/2020/wes-5-1623-2020-discussion.html https://wes.copernicus.org/articles/5/1623/2020/wes-5-1623-2... Is this the one you're thinking of? If so it sounds like wind shear has a surprising amount of impact on it. This article also suggests up to 40% losses in downstream wind turbines in a wind farm, which might be addressed by having some turbines rotating the other way: https://www.inverter.com/the-efficiency-of-wind-turbine-in-different-direction https://www.inverter.com/the-efficiency-of-wind-turbine-in-d...
anonymousiam 4y ago
indigodaddy 4y ago
wrongly?
- datashaman 4y ago
  incorrectly is better, i think.
paulpauper 4y ago
this is a direct application of fluid mechanics, such as navier stokes for the optimal length of the oar, the shape of the paddle, etc.
benjaminjosephw 4y ago
You don't often see such clear examples of where industrial design impacts the evolution of human practices. It seems like the feedback loop works both ways - the available paddles inform paddling style and intended paddling style informs the design and manufacture of verities of paddles. It would be interesting to explore where else these kinds of observable mutual feedback loops might occur.
opwieurposiu 4y ago
See also the greenland style paddle, which you can make from a 2x4. https://greatoutdoorprovision.com/blog/greenland-paddles-re-discovered/ https://greatoutdoorprovision.com/blog/greenland-paddles-re-...

108 points by troydavis 4y ago

Would it impact Standup Paddlers?

Funny enough, rowing, in all it's Olympic glory still isn't sure what the optimal oar size or length is. There's some contention over what the right surface area and geometry is with many higher performance groups using older designs now as they feel the current generation is oversized and with too short a shaft.

ghaff 4y ago
Of course, the "right" answer for racing may not be the same as for someone doing relatively recreational paddling. I assume it's very situational--including for the individual involved.
- edrxty 4y ago
  Recreational paddlers generally aren't going to notice a difference at all. The issue is balancing losses from force vectors, the blades pushing and pulling towards/away from each other at the extremes of the stroke, and fluid dynamics where the larger blade has higher flat plate drag and wastes less energy as turbulence around the periphery. You can't have both without making special (wider pin spread) rigging for the boat which oddly hasn't been played around with much..... Also of note, lightweight women through open weight men use the same blade area and very similar spread/inboard/outboard measurements. There hasn't been much interest in tailoring the rigging to athletes due to equipment expense and availability limitations, even at the Olympic level.
  - mhh__ 4y ago
    In Olympic sabre fencing men and women use the same timings which can mean that the women's bouts are actually a fair bit more interesting to watch sometimes because they're slower and more likely to make mistakes whereas the men's game is a finely tuned collision at high speed in the middle of the piste (i.e. unless you fence regularly you'll have no idea what's going on)
taneq 4y ago
I wonder what their advice on the optimal shoe size would be?
lmcorrigan0 4y ago
Olympic rower here - You're right there has been a shift towards Concept2 Comp blades in sculling (and with that a reconfiguration of oar, inboard, and outboard length). It seems sweeping is still firmly committed to big blades and I would say the oar length is fairly standardized in boat classes within ~1cm. It will be interesting to see how many scullers (or sweepers) adopt the comp blades at the next World Championships and Olympics. I wouldn't consider those blades an "older" design, though feel free to correct me as I may not know my history here.

boznz 4y ago

I wonder how many other "assumptions" out there are also fucked up ?

ghaff 4y ago

I'm a bit unsure about "the industry" here. It's probably true that whitewater paddlers, as the article suggests, tend to go with shorter paddles than are generally ideal for sea kayak touring. Generally speaking, longer shaft paddles have been available, but it may well be the case that a lot of people don't go with them because it doesn't feel natural based on how they learned to paddle. (I agree with the basic point that, for sea kayaking, you mostly want to keep your hands fairly low and have a relatively long paddle. There's also a whole discussion around blade shapes but that's a topic for another day.) ADDED: I did do a fair amount of sea kayaking instruction at one point and the inclination of a lot of students is definitely to hold their hands high and dig in whether because of previous whitewater kayaking, canoeing, fun-yaks, or other reasons.

palmetieri2000 4y ago
Hi mate! I'm super interested in this topic. Why is having a long paddle with fairly low hands beneficial for sea kayaking? Do you have any resources you think are good quality that I could find somewhere? Thanks!
- japhyr 4y ago
  In sea kayaking you're usually going longer distances, so being able to get into a steady efficient rhythm is important. Quick maneuverability is important, but it's not the highest priority. Wind also comes up a lot in sea kayaking, and being able to keep your paddle low is helpful.
  - taneq 4y ago
    Also unless something's gone horribly wrong you're less likely to need to push off the bottom or fit your oar between your kayak and nearby rocks.
- ghaff 4y ago
  I don't have any specific resources but it's really an energy and muscle group thing. When you paddle--and this is broadly true although maybe more specific to sea kayak touring than other things--you're not primarily using your arms. You're essentially keeping your hands in a fairly fixed location and rotating your upper body to supply the needed force. (Though this applies to canoeing as well.) Some of the classic books by the likes of Nigel Foster are probably still applicable but I haven't looked at them in years.

tormeh 4y ago

What I don't get is why one oar is rotated 90 degrees off the other one. It means whenever I use these double-sided paddles I have to rotate them ever so slightly whenever I make a new stroke. It's annoying and I don't understand why it's done. Does anyone know?

lkschubert8 4y ago
Last I remember looking into it is the hard 90 degree offset is for wind resistance in open water.
- handmodel 4y ago
  This is why it's done but still sorta of strange to me that this was the way I was taught by camp instructors - even though we never were going for speed. Feels a bit like learning how to ride a bike with one of those aerodynamic helmets even if you aren't really ready to learn racing technique yet. https://www.sportsperformancebulletin.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/helmet.jpg https://www.sportsperformancebulletin.com/wp-content/uploads...
  - ghaff 4y ago
    It's not just racing. Feathering paddles can be really useful generally if wind picks up and you're actively fighting it. Otherwise you're dealing with a lot of resistance with the paddle blade in the air. And I assume there are instructors who just want to instill feathered paddles as the norm you should expect. I generally disagree but lots of people with more experience than I have don't.
- ghaff 4y ago
  Yes. It's called feathering. In general, I prefer to unfeather my paddles. (Many good paddles can be adjusted--modula small surface area Greenland paddles.) But there's also an argument that you shouldn't change your paddle orientation so that you can do bracing and other manoeuvres by reflex.
stevesimmons 4y ago

stevesimmons 4y ago

A slightly strange article, whose premise feels like a strawman. I've paddled a ton of whitewater, sprint, marathon, canoe polo, touring and sea kayaking. The only time I ever cared about total length (rather than shaft length) was when I was a canoe polo goalie, and wanted to balance reaching the top corners of the goal (long) with fast acceleration and turns (shorter).

smegsicle 4y ago
someone posts one article on kayaking and the hn canoe polo people just come out of the gd woodwork
- stevesimmons 4y ago
  canoe polo is kayaking, no?
spydum 4y ago
I'm pretty sure all the big box sporting retailers sell based off total length though? I thought his point was total length is wrong, it's shaft length which matters. Paddle shape and length are independent and surprisingly uncorrelated.
ummonk 4y ago
The claim in the article is that manufacturers focus on specifying total length instead of shaft length.

TedShiller 4y ago

swayvil 4y ago

I imagine many frustrating arguments. Truth is dictated by authority. That's just how our society works. For like 10,000 years. Scientific enlightenment notwithstanding. Like a network of solipsists. If the authority told us to cut off our nose we'd be a 90% noseless population inside a week.

_trampeltier 4y ago

Does remember me on the story from 2019, in which side a windturbine should rotated. They are all wrong, if they would rotate in the other direction (north from equator) it would be much better (the paper said +11 to 20% better). So allways ask, why is is so since ever ..

taneq 4y ago
A quick search turned up this paper: https://wes.copernicus.org/articles/5/1623/2020/wes-5-1623-2020-discussion.html https://wes.copernicus.org/articles/5/1623/2020/wes-5-1623-2... Is this the one you're thinking of? If so it sounds like wind shear has a surprising amount of impact on it. This article also suggests up to 40% losses in downstream wind turbines in a wind farm, which might be addressed by having some turbines rotating the other way: https://www.inverter.com/the-efficiency-of-wind-turbine-in-different-direction https://www.inverter.com/the-efficiency-of-wind-turbine-in-d...

anonymousiam 4y ago

indigodaddy 4y ago

wrongly?

datashaman 4y ago
incorrectly is better, i think.

paulpauper 4y ago

this is a direct application of fluid mechanics, such as navier stokes for the optimal length of the oar, the shape of the paddle, etc.

benjaminjosephw 4y ago

You don't often see such clear examples of where industrial design impacts the evolution of human practices. It seems like the feedback loop works both ways - the available paddles inform paddling style and intended paddling style informs the design and manufacture of verities of paddles. It would be interesting to explore where else these kinds of observable mutual feedback loops might occur.

opwieurposiu 4y ago

See also the greenland style paddle, which you can make from a 2x4. https://greatoutdoorprovision.com/blog/greenland-paddles-re-discovered/ https://greatoutdoorprovision.com/blog/greenland-paddles-re-...