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Pretty cool. But all these different note taking software suffer from the same thing: it’s not so much about the actual taking of notes that’s the problem, but

Pretty cool. But all these different note taking software suffer from the same thing: it’s not so much about the actual taking of notes that’s the problem, but organizing all the notes when one needs it. I’m reading a book called “How to Take Smart Notes” which espouses the Zettelkatsen method, and I spent all weekend going down the EMacs + Org-roam rabbit hole to implement what the book espouses. However, it became too complex, and became too burdensome. The real user pain point here is “it’s difficult to remember what I write down,” and “associating thoughts, and notes from disparate sources is too time consuming.” No software has solved these two pain points, I’m afraid.

awesomelvin 4y ago
I believe you may like Obsidian.
8fingerlouie 4y ago
I'm in the same boat, and have more or less settled on simply writing plain text (markdown format) files in a plain directory structure maintained by me. I then use Obsidian to "organize" the notes. I'm also guilty of just jotting quick notes into iOS Notes. It's always there, and "good enough" for most quick note taking tasks. I prefer plain text for longer notes (which i assume has a longer shelf life), but if i'm just jotting down a quick list of things i need to get done today, iOS notes is more than enough.
- lhoff 4y ago
  You might want to give "Joplin" a try. Straight forward OpenSource notetaking app with Markdown, sync Backends for your prefered cloud service (incl. WebDAV/Nextcloud) and smartphone apps. https://joplinapp.org/ https://joplinapp.org/
  - 8fingerlouie 4y ago
    Sadly, Joplin doesn't support synchronizing files with iCloud, and i'm not about to go out and purchase yet another cloud synchronization option just for notes :)
    - cyberpunk 4y ago
      It's just markdown, you can use git.
poulpy123 4y ago
I wonder if we couldn't use some kind of machine learning tools to provides summaries or overviews of the notes (like there are some bots that summarize news articles)
- input_sh 4y ago
  I just do that manually. Whenever I open one of my notes, I'm immediately greeted with a couple of key bullet points that summarize it, and if I need to dig deeper, all I have to do is scroll further down.
readerbaza 4y ago
I've used xournalapp++ recently mostly to sketch diagrams as I would on paper. I don't see it as a real note taking, just paper replacement. That said what you said is absolutely true and in my projects idea folder I called this "Inner knowing". The main problem is that note taking apps are marketed as a replacement for human memory ("brain dump", "second brain", etc). Hence they create a dependency on them as they decrease the ability to remember. When infact what we need is the opposite. Also I believe it should be an OS/DE feature thightly integrated with file management/search. Yes, i've tried obsidian, it somewhat works but it's always an electron nonsense.
- kurupt213 4y ago
  For me, the Initial notes are handwritten (in notability or onenote on the iPad). I also always have field notes and a pen in reach. I definitely think the physical action of writing in response to stimulus is critical to initial comprehension and memory. My new note rewriting workflow is in obsidian. I’m really liking the way it comes together with the links and tags. I’m basically building a personal wiki highly relevant to me. And the final notes are way more accessible.
4mitkumar 4y ago
Ctrl+q: search for any string you remember from your notes. That's my Helm org-Rifle shortcut for my org-notes over 10ish org files in Emacs. Works pretty well so far
jyriand 4y ago
I've tried them all: roam research, obsidian, logseq, the Archive, org-roam etc. etc. None of them worked for me until I moved from digital to analog with pen and index cards.
- capableweb 4y ago
  What problem were you trying to solve with your search for something digital when the solution turned out to be physical?
  - jyriand 4y ago
    Studying, reading, writing
    - capableweb 4y ago
      Yeah, if you're having trouble doing any of those things in front of computer, I'm not sure if the choice of software would help in any way. Some people are just wired to do things via non-digital ways :) Glad you found your solution.
robertkluin 4y ago
Disclaimer: I’m currently building a product to help with my own organization challenges. This is what I realized as well—organization is the hard part. I kept struggling to find notes when I wanted to reference them. In my case, my notes are usually (but not always) captured in a meeting. I would struggle to find content because I might remember a person, a rough date, or some topic discussed… but if I put it in the wrong folder, tag, or physical notebook I was out of luck. I put together a simple prototype that pulled all the metadata off my calendar included it in notes. That was really helpful. We liked it enough playing with it internally that we built a product (witful.com). In 2.5 years of real world use I’ve almost never struggled to find stuff. Really has been a game changer for me, but my content is meeting centric.
sudhirkhanger 4y ago
That's not encouraging. I was planning into learning and setting up org roam.
creakingstairs 4y ago
> it became too complex, and became too burdensome. I think simplicity is the key for any long lasting system. One of the ways to ensure that my zettlekasten system doesn’t get too complicated is to “discard” most of my writing. I always put everything into Obsidians daily notes and leave it there without any processing. I process the writing into cards only if I look for it again or it’s interesting enough.
kevinslin 4y ago
The problem with externalizing information (note taking) is that past a point, it becomes difficult to find information again when you need it (because you have too much information to comb through). wrote extensively on this in [It's Not You - It's Your Knowledge Base](https://www.kevinslin.com/notes/e1455752-b052-4212-ac6e-cc054659f2bb.html https://www.kevinslin.com/notes/e1455752-b052-4212-ac6e-cc05...) I find that at the end of the day, the only thing that works over long periods of time (and a large number of notes) are hierarchies with a regular structure that can be applied consistently. The pain point with this system is that hierarchies are hard to change and the way we think of things does change. This is why I ended up creating my own note taking tool built around the idea of flexible hierarchies (https://dendron.so https://dendron.so)

awesomelvin 4y ago

I believe you may like Obsidian.

8fingerlouie 4y ago

I'm in the same boat, and have more or less settled on simply writing plain text (markdown format) files in a plain directory structure maintained by me. I then use Obsidian to "organize" the notes. I'm also guilty of just jotting quick notes into iOS Notes. It's always there, and "good enough" for most quick note taking tasks. I prefer plain text for longer notes (which i assume has a longer shelf life), but if i'm just jotting down a quick list of things i need to get done today, iOS notes is more than enough.

lhoff 4y ago
You might want to give "Joplin" a try. Straight forward OpenSource notetaking app with Markdown, sync Backends for your prefered cloud service (incl. WebDAV/Nextcloud) and smartphone apps. https://joplinapp.org/ https://joplinapp.org/
- 8fingerlouie 4y ago
  Sadly, Joplin doesn't support synchronizing files with iCloud, and i'm not about to go out and purchase yet another cloud synchronization option just for notes :)
  - cyberpunk 4y ago
    It's just markdown, you can use git.

poulpy123 4y ago

I wonder if we couldn't use some kind of machine learning tools to provides summaries or overviews of the notes (like there are some bots that summarize news articles)

input_sh 4y ago
I just do that manually. Whenever I open one of my notes, I'm immediately greeted with a couple of key bullet points that summarize it, and if I need to dig deeper, all I have to do is scroll further down.

readerbaza 4y ago

I've used xournalapp++ recently mostly to sketch diagrams as I would on paper. I don't see it as a real note taking, just paper replacement. That said what you said is absolutely true and in my projects idea folder I called this "Inner knowing". The main problem is that note taking apps are marketed as a replacement for human memory ("brain dump", "second brain", etc). Hence they create a dependency on them as they decrease the ability to remember. When infact what we need is the opposite. Also I believe it should be an OS/DE feature thightly integrated with file management/search. Yes, i've tried obsidian, it somewhat works but it's always an electron nonsense.

kurupt213 4y ago
For me, the Initial notes are handwritten (in notability or onenote on the iPad). I also always have field notes and a pen in reach. I definitely think the physical action of writing in response to stimulus is critical to initial comprehension and memory. My new note rewriting workflow is in obsidian. I’m really liking the way it comes together with the links and tags. I’m basically building a personal wiki highly relevant to me. And the final notes are way more accessible.

4mitkumar 4y ago

Ctrl+q: search for any string you remember from your notes. That's my Helm org-Rifle shortcut for my org-notes over 10ish org files in Emacs. Works pretty well so far

jyriand 4y ago

I've tried them all: roam research, obsidian, logseq, the Archive, org-roam etc. etc. None of them worked for me until I moved from digital to analog with pen and index cards.

capableweb 4y ago
What problem were you trying to solve with your search for something digital when the solution turned out to be physical?
- jyriand 4y ago
  Studying, reading, writing
  - capableweb 4y ago
    Yeah, if you're having trouble doing any of those things in front of computer, I'm not sure if the choice of software would help in any way. Some people are just wired to do things via non-digital ways :) Glad you found your solution.

robertkluin 4y ago

Disclaimer: I’m currently building a product to help with my own organization challenges. This is what I realized as well—organization is the hard part. I kept struggling to find notes when I wanted to reference them. In my case, my notes are usually (but not always) captured in a meeting. I would struggle to find content because I might remember a person, a rough date, or some topic discussed… but if I put it in the wrong folder, tag, or physical notebook I was out of luck. I put together a simple prototype that pulled all the metadata off my calendar included it in notes. That was really helpful. We liked it enough playing with it internally that we built a product (witful.com). In 2.5 years of real world use I’ve almost never struggled to find stuff. Really has been a game changer for me, but my content is meeting centric.

sudhirkhanger 4y ago

That's not encouraging. I was planning into learning and setting up org roam.

creakingstairs 4y ago

> it became too complex, and became too burdensome. I think simplicity is the key for any long lasting system. One of the ways to ensure that my zettlekasten system doesn’t get too complicated is to “discard” most of my writing. I always put everything into Obsidians daily notes and leave it there without any processing. I process the writing into cards only if I look for it again or it’s interesting enough.

kevinslin 4y ago

The problem with externalizing information (note taking) is that past a point, it becomes difficult to find information again when you need it (because you have too much information to comb through). wrote extensively on this in [It's Not You - It's Your Knowledge Base](https://www.kevinslin.com/notes/e1455752-b052-4212-ac6e-cc054659f2bb.html https://www.kevinslin.com/notes/e1455752-b052-4212-ac6e-cc05...) I find that at the end of the day, the only thing that works over long periods of time (and a large number of notes) are hierarchies with a regular structure that can be applied consistently. The pain point with this system is that hierarchies are hard to change and the way we think of things does change. This is why I ended up creating my own note taking tool built around the idea of flexible hierarchies (https://dendron.so https://dendron.so)