7 ms·

Sadly with a fridge or a washing machine the efficiency is quite different. Buying a 20+ old washing machine will cost you a lot in electricity and wasted water

Sadly with a fridge or a washing machine the efficiency is quite different. Buying a 20+ old washing machine will cost you a lot in electricity and wasted water.

dotancohen 4y ago
How feasible is it to buy a new refrigerator, and connect the nice efficient hardware to a thermostat and motor relay from an old fridge model? Those components are available inexpensively from repair shops.
- ziftface 4y ago
  Maybe even an open source washer with available parts that runs on an Arduino or similar
  - dotancohen 4y ago
    Soviet-era mechanical devices actually came with the blueprints to manufacture spare parts.
Gordonjcp 4y ago
> will cost you a lot in electricity and wasted water. <laughs in Scottish>
frenchman99 4y ago
Given how much water is needed to extract metals from the ground to create new appliances, the total amount of wasted water is subject to debate. It may be better overall to just keep using the old thing till it breaks.
- jacquesm 4y ago
  It might even be worth fixing it, depending on the build quality and the actual consumption. Use a kill-a-watt or something similar to figure out what the device actually costs. Be prepared for surprises, both in the positive and the negative direction! Do this before something breaks.
- bayindirh 4y ago
  Replaced a 20+ year GE 18" fridge due to its age. Its insulation was gone, compressor has lost a lot of power and was noisy. Our new Samsung has more space, less noise, way less heat generation and power consumption, and has no additional bells and whistles. Like or not, appliances age, and their performance drops. Same with dishwashers. With the looming water crisis ahead, every drop of savings is a plus. Arcelik/Beko group uses 1000LT fresh water per year. The rest is recycled in the plant. This is less than monthly consumption of a single household.
  - rytis 4y ago
    > With the looming water crisis ahead, every drop of savings is a plus. Agreed. What's worrying though is the amount of water wasted in the delivery network. Really annoying when people trying to save a litre here or there and then millions are just going straight in to the ground. https://www.thameswater.co.uk/about-us/performance/leakage-performance https://www.thameswater.co.uk/about-us/performance/leakage-p... > Every day we supply 2.6 billion litres of water, but not all of that gets to our customers. At the moment, we leak almost 24% of the water we supply.
    - egeozcan 4y ago
      If you speak German and want to see an example for wasting a lot of water so casually: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bykcfJgye2M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bykcfJgye2M The gist of the story is, because of the unmaintained leaky pipes of a decorative water installation, the city of Marburg wasted 20 million liters per year. A comedy show on state television is making fun of them.
    - thorin 4y ago
      When I was working on the grid a few years ago we got all the data on leakage to plow through and it was greater than 50% at that point (UK)!
  - cik 4y ago
    > Same with dishwashers. With the looming water crisis ahead, every drop of savings is a plus. There's a lot to be said with focusing on the right outcomes. We should do everything we can to reduce unnecessary waste and inputs. But, we also need to embrace water reclamation, water recycling. We currently reclaim ~86% of the water in my country. It's not great - but it's a good place to start.
lqet 4y ago
Buying a new washing machine / dishwasher requires delicate skills - there are basically two things that drive the price down: simplicity, and low quality. You have to look for simple and well-build machines, and this usually means days of comparing prices and reviews. It also requires instinct. To make matters worse, over-engineered "smart" machines often have very good reviews because they offer a reasonable experience for the first few years, and most people are blinded by "cool" smart features. A general rule of thumb: avoid machines with a large display.
- jl6 4y ago
  How do you hope to solve this problem in general? It applies to every product with an opaque supply chain, which is pretty much every product. The only reviews that matter are the long-term ones, which are rare, and by the time a long time has passed, the original model is no longer made (or worse, a cheaper process is used to make something under the same name). The only approach I can see is to trust in a brand. But companies making commodified products like household appliances seem happy to have burned all their brand good will in exchange for short term profits, meaning I no longer trust any of them.
  - shaky-carrousel 4y ago
    Well, you can buy industrial appliances. They are more expensive, because they are sturdier and not subsidized by ads and data harvesting. But they are not "smart", and will last for a long long time.
- agilob 4y ago
  I bought a new washing machine from Sharp that was supposed to be eco-friendly, with microplastic filters, low energy usage, quick drying... whatnot. Most of my clothes are damaged from too wide holes in the tub. During spinning stage wet fabric get pulled into the tiny holes it breaks. Took us months to understand how our clothes get damaged. https://www.ukwhitegoods.co.uk/images/articles/holes%20in%20clothes%20washing%20machine.png https://www.ukwhitegoods.co.uk/images/articles/holes%20in%20...
- scrlk 4y ago
Schroedingersat 4y ago
If you use small scale solar+wind and surplus grey water those are moot. The comparison is the water and energy embodied in the solar panel/turbine/inverter. If you live in a desert, water is relevant
- beachy 4y ago
  Or tank (rain) water. Living on tank, you have free water unless you run out, when it is hideously expensive to truck it in. But as long as you have your consumption under control, you are your own water company and you may choose not to bother with appliances that focus on water efficiency.
- pmoriarty 4y ago
  "If you use small scale solar+wind and surplus grey water those are moot." You wash your clothes in grey water?
Ansil849 4y ago
> Buying a 20+ old washing machine will cost you a lot in electricity and wasted water. Does the cost of the electricity and water an old machine uses equal or exceed the cost of the electricity and water involved in having to make a brand new appliance instead of using an already-made one?
- mcv 4y ago
  At some point, yes. Washing machines use a lot of power and water, and any savings on those will eventually earn themselves back. Where exactly that point is, I don't know. I'm generally in favour of repairing old devices, but from what I understand, washing machines have a limited lifespan, and a lot has been improved about their efficiency in the past 20 years.
  - Ansil849 4y ago
    I don't know, I'm not convinced that the savings achieved by newer laundry machines outweigh the savings of using older machines when the environmental/energy/etc costs of running modern factories to create these new machines are factored into the equation. If you compare old laundry machine A to newer laundry machine B, sure, you'd see the savings. But if you factor in the fact that to make B you also need to have an operational factory, then I'm not sure the costs are in the newer machine's favor.
petters 4y ago
But it will finish much faster! Finding a brand new but 20 years old dishwasher or washing machine would be awesome, at least in the EU. In Sweden, almost all of my electrical bill is heating anyway and water is practically free. My dishwasher's default program requires 4—5 hours. In the 90s, this was <1h I think?
- danielbln 4y ago
  I'm pretty sure your dishwasher has a fast program, I know mine does. Default is 3.5h, the fast program will only take 90 minutes, but of course use a fair amount more electricity since it has to heat the water to a higher temperature.
  - andylynch 4y ago
    It's worth checking the manual - my IKEA dishwasher's fast program uses less energy and water, and 1/5 of the time (but is only good for lighter loads).
  - NonNefarious 4y ago
    Which raises the question of whether using hot water from the water heater (at least as a starting point) would provide a net savings. It's not as if the dishwasher hoards very much water for a load.
    - maccard 4y ago
      _maybe_ but it's not a guarantee. You still need a heating element in the dishwasher as there's no guarantee that the hot water is actually at the correct temperature. If the supply is a hot water tank, the tank might not be full, and in an on demand system you might have cold water in the pipes. > It's not as if the dishwasher hoards very much water for a load. Apologies if I misread this but dishwashers absolutely _do_ hoard and reuse water. My dishwasher claims to use about 12l of water for a full wash, which really isn't much at all.
      - 4y ago
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
tomp 4y ago
It's interesting how indoctrinated we've become to think of "energy and water" as waste instead of as a feature of an advanced, high-technology high-energy civilisation. If we had good sources of energy (nuclear, or solar+batteries) we wouldn't even need to worry about that. Water as well, water simply cannot get "wasted", you just need to clean it, which requires energy. The fact is, these "modern" "green" appliances are simply worse, sure they use less energy but waste much more time (because colder water -> longer wash cycle). You can get more (useful) energy, but you can never get more time.

Sadly with a fridge or a washing machine the efficiency is quite different. Buying a 20+ old washing machine will cost you a lot in electricity and wasted water.

dotancohen 4y ago

How feasible is it to buy a new refrigerator, and connect the nice efficient hardware to a thermostat and motor relay from an old fridge model? Those components are available inexpensively from repair shops.

ziftface 4y ago
Maybe even an open source washer with available parts that runs on an Arduino or similar
- dotancohen 4y ago
  Soviet-era mechanical devices actually came with the blueprints to manufacture spare parts.

Gordonjcp 4y ago

> will cost you a lot in electricity and wasted water. <laughs in Scottish>

frenchman99 4y ago

Given how much water is needed to extract metals from the ground to create new appliances, the total amount of wasted water is subject to debate. It may be better overall to just keep using the old thing till it breaks.

jacquesm 4y ago
It might even be worth fixing it, depending on the build quality and the actual consumption. Use a kill-a-watt or something similar to figure out what the device actually costs. Be prepared for surprises, both in the positive and the negative direction! Do this before something breaks.
bayindirh 4y ago
Replaced a 20+ year GE 18" fridge due to its age. Its insulation was gone, compressor has lost a lot of power and was noisy. Our new Samsung has more space, less noise, way less heat generation and power consumption, and has no additional bells and whistles. Like or not, appliances age, and their performance drops. Same with dishwashers. With the looming water crisis ahead, every drop of savings is a plus. Arcelik/Beko group uses 1000LT fresh water per year. The rest is recycled in the plant. This is less than monthly consumption of a single household.
- rytis 4y ago
  > With the looming water crisis ahead, every drop of savings is a plus. Agreed. What's worrying though is the amount of water wasted in the delivery network. Really annoying when people trying to save a litre here or there and then millions are just going straight in to the ground. https://www.thameswater.co.uk/about-us/performance/leakage-performance https://www.thameswater.co.uk/about-us/performance/leakage-p... > Every day we supply 2.6 billion litres of water, but not all of that gets to our customers. At the moment, we leak almost 24% of the water we supply.
  - egeozcan 4y ago
    If you speak German and want to see an example for wasting a lot of water so casually: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bykcfJgye2M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bykcfJgye2M The gist of the story is, because of the unmaintained leaky pipes of a decorative water installation, the city of Marburg wasted 20 million liters per year. A comedy show on state television is making fun of them.
  - thorin 4y ago
    When I was working on the grid a few years ago we got all the data on leakage to plow through and it was greater than 50% at that point (UK)!
- cik 4y ago
  > Same with dishwashers. With the looming water crisis ahead, every drop of savings is a plus. There's a lot to be said with focusing on the right outcomes. We should do everything we can to reduce unnecessary waste and inputs. But, we also need to embrace water reclamation, water recycling. We currently reclaim ~86% of the water in my country. It's not great - but it's a good place to start.

lqet 4y ago

Buying a new washing machine / dishwasher requires delicate skills - there are basically two things that drive the price down: simplicity, and low quality. You have to look for simple and well-build machines, and this usually means days of comparing prices and reviews. It also requires instinct. To make matters worse, over-engineered "smart" machines often have very good reviews because they offer a reasonable experience for the first few years, and most people are blinded by "cool" smart features. A general rule of thumb: avoid machines with a large display.

jl6 4y ago
How do you hope to solve this problem in general? It applies to every product with an opaque supply chain, which is pretty much every product. The only reviews that matter are the long-term ones, which are rare, and by the time a long time has passed, the original model is no longer made (or worse, a cheaper process is used to make something under the same name). The only approach I can see is to trust in a brand. But companies making commodified products like household appliances seem happy to have burned all their brand good will in exchange for short term profits, meaning I no longer trust any of them.
- shaky-carrousel 4y ago
  Well, you can buy industrial appliances. They are more expensive, because they are sturdier and not subsidized by ads and data harvesting. But they are not "smart", and will last for a long long time.
agilob 4y ago
I bought a new washing machine from Sharp that was supposed to be eco-friendly, with microplastic filters, low energy usage, quick drying... whatnot. Most of my clothes are damaged from too wide holes in the tub. During spinning stage wet fabric get pulled into the tiny holes it breaks. Took us months to understand how our clothes get damaged. https://www.ukwhitegoods.co.uk/images/articles/holes%20in%20clothes%20washing%20machine.png https://www.ukwhitegoods.co.uk/images/articles/holes%20in%20...
scrlk 4y ago

Schroedingersat 4y ago

If you use small scale solar+wind and surplus grey water those are moot. The comparison is the water and energy embodied in the solar panel/turbine/inverter. If you live in a desert, water is relevant

beachy 4y ago
Or tank (rain) water. Living on tank, you have free water unless you run out, when it is hideously expensive to truck it in. But as long as you have your consumption under control, you are your own water company and you may choose not to bother with appliances that focus on water efficiency.
pmoriarty 4y ago
"If you use small scale solar+wind and surplus grey water those are moot." You wash your clothes in grey water?

Ansil849 4y ago

> Buying a 20+ old washing machine will cost you a lot in electricity and wasted water. Does the cost of the electricity and water an old machine uses equal or exceed the cost of the electricity and water involved in having to make a brand new appliance instead of using an already-made one?

mcv 4y ago
At some point, yes. Washing machines use a lot of power and water, and any savings on those will eventually earn themselves back. Where exactly that point is, I don't know. I'm generally in favour of repairing old devices, but from what I understand, washing machines have a limited lifespan, and a lot has been improved about their efficiency in the past 20 years.
- Ansil849 4y ago
  I don't know, I'm not convinced that the savings achieved by newer laundry machines outweigh the savings of using older machines when the environmental/energy/etc costs of running modern factories to create these new machines are factored into the equation. If you compare old laundry machine A to newer laundry machine B, sure, you'd see the savings. But if you factor in the fact that to make B you also need to have an operational factory, then I'm not sure the costs are in the newer machine's favor.

petters 4y ago

But it will finish much faster! Finding a brand new but 20 years old dishwasher or washing machine would be awesome, at least in the EU. In Sweden, almost all of my electrical bill is heating anyway and water is practically free. My dishwasher's default program requires 4—5 hours. In the 90s, this was <1h I think?

danielbln 4y ago
I'm pretty sure your dishwasher has a fast program, I know mine does. Default is 3.5h, the fast program will only take 90 minutes, but of course use a fair amount more electricity since it has to heat the water to a higher temperature.
- andylynch 4y ago
  It's worth checking the manual - my IKEA dishwasher's fast program uses less energy and water, and 1/5 of the time (but is only good for lighter loads).
- NonNefarious 4y ago
  Which raises the question of whether using hot water from the water heater (at least as a starting point) would provide a net savings. It's not as if the dishwasher hoards very much water for a load.
  - maccard 4y ago
    _maybe_ but it's not a guarantee. You still need a heating element in the dishwasher as there's no guarantee that the hot water is actually at the correct temperature. If the supply is a hot water tank, the tank might not be full, and in an on demand system you might have cold water in the pipes. > It's not as if the dishwasher hoards very much water for a load. Apologies if I misread this but dishwashers absolutely _do_ hoard and reuse water. My dishwasher claims to use about 12l of water for a full wash, which really isn't much at all.
    - 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

tomp 4y ago

It's interesting how indoctrinated we've become to think of "energy and water" as waste instead of as a feature of an advanced, high-technology high-energy civilisation. If we had good sources of energy (nuclear, or solar+batteries) we wouldn't even need to worry about that. Water as well, water simply cannot get "wasted", you just need to clean it, which requires energy. The fact is, these "modern" "green" appliances are simply worse, sure they use less energy but waste much more time (because colder water -> longer wash cycle). You can get more (useful) energy, but you can never get more time.