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I don't understand why many of the stands he calls useless are useless. Sure most of them are less economical but as long as there's a loop of metal anchored to

I don't understand why many of the stands he calls useless are useless. Sure most of them are less economical but as long as there's a loop of metal anchored to the ground how is it useless?

_dain_ 4y ago
They don't work for many bicycle geometries[1]. Small vs large frames, small vs large wheels, wide vs narrow tyres, tricycles, tandem bikes, cargo bikes, recumbent bikes, hand-cranked bikes etc. Also if they are too finicky about the exact way you lock the bike (particular orientation, particular lock-point) it can be hard to make it work when there are obstacles (such as other bikes). The Sheffield stand makes the fewest assumptions. The "wheel grabber" kinds are particularly useless; thieves just detach the wheel or snip the wires and make off with the remainder. [1] I'll give an example: the other week I tried to lock my bike to a trapezoid shaped stand, kind of like #13 in the thread but longer and without the lower wiggly bit. It was perpendicular to a wall, with the tall end towards the wall. The diagonal part happened to be exactly parallel with the mid-frame of my bike. Since parallel lines do not intersect, I would have had to move the bike completely inside the stand in order to make a D-lock fit around it, which was precluded by the placement next to the wall. I couldn't put it the other way and attach it to the rear chain stays because it would have jutted out into the path and obstructed pedestrians. Try as I might, I just couldn't make it work. So I just attached it to a metal fence ten yards away.
- abyssin 4y ago
  And there’s the risk of getting a wheel out true if the slightest pression is applied to your bike horizontally.
- contravariant 4y ago
  You're supposed to fix the frame to the stand, why are you just attaching the wheel? Wheel "grabbers" (usually just called 'fietsenrek') are pretty common in the Netherlands, especially the 2 level ones, because they allow the greatest number of bikes in a small area. This does have some downsides obviously, but in the Netherlands 'largest number of bikes' tends to outweigh other concerns.
  - _dain_ 4y ago
    > You're supposed to fix the frame to the stand, why are you just attaching the wheel? Are we talking about the same kind? I mean these pieces of junk: https://twitter.com/PPushbike/status/1511404994007900160 https://twitter.com/PPushbike/status/1511404994007900160
    - contravariant 4y ago
      That one is positioned weirdly high (and not to the ground) though well within the range of the chain attached to the front (which the bike needs to attach securely since it seems to be missing a horizontal bar)
      - _dain_ 4y ago
        Chains are inferior to D-locks, so a stand that doesn't work with the latter is a failure. Also as mentioned, these kinds can end up damaging the wheel if any torque is applied to the bike and it tips over (wind, other bikes leaning on it). And I think the manufacturer really did intend these to be mounted to walls rather than the floor. The second tweet shows that it's actually hinged, presumably to allow the bike to come in at a non-right angle to the wall, which wouldn't make any sense at all if it were on the ground.
        contravariant 4y ago
        What the manufacturer designed these for is irrelevant, you asked if it was the one I meant and I indicated how its different. D-locks are inferior to guarded bike sheds so presumably we can rule out all other bike stands as failures as well? You're free to prefer one option over another but if you bring a less versatile lock for your bike you're going to have more difficulty securing it and your trade-offs aren't the same as everyone else's. For what it's worth I've never seen or heard someone get a wheel damaged by these bike stands. I'm kind of curious if it's even realistically possible, any realistic amount of force isn't going to do much more than stretch a few spokes (in most cases temporarily).
  - 4y ago
notatoad 4y ago
Securely locking your bike means locking both wheels and frame to the rack. Any rack that doesn't reach all three of those things is impossible to securely lock to.
- dividedbyzero 4y ago
  Though if your bike isn't expensive or rare and you're in an area with tons of such bikes, secure locking isn't all that important. Just have some sort of lock so it can't be wheeled away inconspicuously. At least that's what everyone here does and it seems to work well enough.
  - II2II 4y ago
    I live in a city where bike theft happens, but you're reasonably sure to come back to an intact bike if the frame is locked to something attached to the ground. The security aspect of the Sheffield stand may not be necessary, but I still prefer them. There are a couple of reasons for that. Spacing is one reason. While you may share a stand with someone else, the next stand is going to be two to three feet away. I don't have to untangle my bike from other bikes, and I don't have to worry about damaging the bike of somebody else. Support is the other reason. Bikes are easy to knock down and relatively easy to mangle. There is a reason why the article referred to some of the racks as wheel benders. I have also seen bikes that were mangled by cars after falling onto the street. That's not a concern with the Sheffield stand.
    - dividedbyzero 4y ago
      Those Sheffield things barely exist here and where they do, they're always taken with other bikes parked all over the place around them so you can't really get your bike back out anyway without lifting other bikes aside. Theres tons of bikes and very little room here since cars need all that's available, so if your bike passes as ordinary, you'll come back to an intact bike regardless of how you lock it, as long as you lock it at all. "Wheelbender" stands haven't caused any wheel issues or other issues for me in three decades of use, and at least those usually are available and have a free spot somewhere, so I wouldn't call them "useless" by a long shot. They may be to you, but I'd rather we over here keep them since the alternative wouldn't be lots and lots of those Sheffield things, there'd be no room for that unless we drastically downsize car parking and I definitely don't see that happen here. I'm sure theft is a huge issue in other places, but it doesn't seem to be that big an issue here so I'm happy if there's any reserved space at all where my bike isn't in someone's way. Just different places having different problems I guess.
jwr 4y ago
Let's consider the "wheel-grabber" stands, anything that you put a wheel into. If you have a bike with a high center of gravity (think a city bike with a crate, an E-bike, or any bike with a child seat), you are guaranteed to at least bend your spokes.

I don't understand why many of the stands he calls useless are useless. Sure most of them are less economical but as long as there's a loop of metal anchored to the ground how is it useless?

_dain_ 4y ago

They don't work for many bicycle geometries[1]. Small vs large frames, small vs large wheels, wide vs narrow tyres, tricycles, tandem bikes, cargo bikes, recumbent bikes, hand-cranked bikes etc. Also if they are too finicky about the exact way you lock the bike (particular orientation, particular lock-point) it can be hard to make it work when there are obstacles (such as other bikes). The Sheffield stand makes the fewest assumptions. The "wheel grabber" kinds are particularly useless; thieves just detach the wheel or snip the wires and make off with the remainder. [1] I'll give an example: the other week I tried to lock my bike to a trapezoid shaped stand, kind of like #13 in the thread but longer and without the lower wiggly bit. It was perpendicular to a wall, with the tall end towards the wall. The diagonal part happened to be exactly parallel with the mid-frame of my bike. Since parallel lines do not intersect, I would have had to move the bike completely inside the stand in order to make a D-lock fit around it, which was precluded by the placement next to the wall. I couldn't put it the other way and attach it to the rear chain stays because it would have jutted out into the path and obstructed pedestrians. Try as I might, I just couldn't make it work. So I just attached it to a metal fence ten yards away.

abyssin 4y ago
And there’s the risk of getting a wheel out true if the slightest pression is applied to your bike horizontally.
contravariant 4y ago
You're supposed to fix the frame to the stand, why are you just attaching the wheel? Wheel "grabbers" (usually just called 'fietsenrek') are pretty common in the Netherlands, especially the 2 level ones, because they allow the greatest number of bikes in a small area. This does have some downsides obviously, but in the Netherlands 'largest number of bikes' tends to outweigh other concerns.
- _dain_ 4y ago
  > You're supposed to fix the frame to the stand, why are you just attaching the wheel? Are we talking about the same kind? I mean these pieces of junk: https://twitter.com/PPushbike/status/1511404994007900160 https://twitter.com/PPushbike/status/1511404994007900160
  - contravariant 4y ago
    That one is positioned weirdly high (and not to the ground) though well within the range of the chain attached to the front (which the bike needs to attach securely since it seems to be missing a horizontal bar)
    - _dain_ 4y ago
      Chains are inferior to D-locks, so a stand that doesn't work with the latter is a failure. Also as mentioned, these kinds can end up damaging the wheel if any torque is applied to the bike and it tips over (wind, other bikes leaning on it). And I think the manufacturer really did intend these to be mounted to walls rather than the floor. The second tweet shows that it's actually hinged, presumably to allow the bike to come in at a non-right angle to the wall, which wouldn't make any sense at all if it were on the ground.
      - contravariant 4y ago
        What the manufacturer designed these for is irrelevant, you asked if it was the one I meant and I indicated how its different. D-locks are inferior to guarded bike sheds so presumably we can rule out all other bike stands as failures as well? You're free to prefer one option over another but if you bring a less versatile lock for your bike you're going to have more difficulty securing it and your trade-offs aren't the same as everyone else's. For what it's worth I've never seen or heard someone get a wheel damaged by these bike stands. I'm kind of curious if it's even realistically possible, any realistic amount of force isn't going to do much more than stretch a few spokes (in most cases temporarily).
- 4y ago

notatoad 4y ago

Securely locking your bike means locking both wheels and frame to the rack. Any rack that doesn't reach all three of those things is impossible to securely lock to.

dividedbyzero 4y ago
Though if your bike isn't expensive or rare and you're in an area with tons of such bikes, secure locking isn't all that important. Just have some sort of lock so it can't be wheeled away inconspicuously. At least that's what everyone here does and it seems to work well enough.
- II2II 4y ago
  I live in a city where bike theft happens, but you're reasonably sure to come back to an intact bike if the frame is locked to something attached to the ground. The security aspect of the Sheffield stand may not be necessary, but I still prefer them. There are a couple of reasons for that. Spacing is one reason. While you may share a stand with someone else, the next stand is going to be two to three feet away. I don't have to untangle my bike from other bikes, and I don't have to worry about damaging the bike of somebody else. Support is the other reason. Bikes are easy to knock down and relatively easy to mangle. There is a reason why the article referred to some of the racks as wheel benders. I have also seen bikes that were mangled by cars after falling onto the street. That's not a concern with the Sheffield stand.
  - dividedbyzero 4y ago
    Those Sheffield things barely exist here and where they do, they're always taken with other bikes parked all over the place around them so you can't really get your bike back out anyway without lifting other bikes aside. Theres tons of bikes and very little room here since cars need all that's available, so if your bike passes as ordinary, you'll come back to an intact bike regardless of how you lock it, as long as you lock it at all. "Wheelbender" stands haven't caused any wheel issues or other issues for me in three decades of use, and at least those usually are available and have a free spot somewhere, so I wouldn't call them "useless" by a long shot. They may be to you, but I'd rather we over here keep them since the alternative wouldn't be lots and lots of those Sheffield things, there'd be no room for that unless we drastically downsize car parking and I definitely don't see that happen here. I'm sure theft is a huge issue in other places, but it doesn't seem to be that big an issue here so I'm happy if there's any reserved space at all where my bike isn't in someone's way. Just different places having different problems I guess.

jwr 4y ago

Let's consider the "wheel-grabber" stands, anything that you put a wheel into. If you have a bike with a high center of gravity (think a city bike with a crate, an E-bike, or any bike with a child seat), you are guaranteed to at least bend your spokes.