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I think that's being a little too naive. Let's face it. The trend is turning USA into a police state. How isn't that not clear by now? Every other day they add

I think that's being a little too naive. Let's face it. The trend is turning USA into a police state. How isn't that not clear by now? Every other day they add new stuff like this, or breach more privacy or expand TSA in other areas, and so on.

antics 15y ago
FUD, [edit:] IMHO. [not trying to be a dick.] The TSA is not an intelligence organization. Its job is not to secretly develop intelligence. It does not have the same problem of needing to not be accountable to the public as, say, the FBI or the NSA. Second, that claim is a lot stronger than you're pretending it is. If you're going to throw around a term like "police state", you will need a lot more proof than hand-wavy "every day they add new stuff like this". Everything in your argument is attributable to selection bias, and if you're going to level a convincing point, you will need to do more than appeal to the fact that people seem to want to believe this stuff. TBH when you say that, it makes me wonder if you really know what a police state even is. Third, my point is not that there is no abuse or that the government is incapable of doing bad things, it's that we should be evaluating pie-in-the-sky predictions with actual evidence. "We are becoming a police state, DUH" is not evidence. And neither is the ridiculous claim that tomorrow the OWS people will be barred from flying.
- sp332 15y ago
  The TSA maintains a secret watchlist and black list. The fact that this list seems to be arbitrary and disconnected from intelligence agencies doesn't make it better.
  - antics 15y ago
    I totally agree.
  - throwawayday 15y ago
    it actually makes it worse: you now have at least 2 agencies you have to watch
- CamperBob 15y ago
  To the extent they are not an intelligence organization, they are not effective, and a waste of funding.
  - antics 15y ago
    Oh yeah, I totally agree with that. Seeing any of the organizations up close it is obvious that this is true.
- ck2 15y ago
  TSA operates VIPR which is doing intelligence gathering.
redthrowaway 15y ago
So the revelation that the NSA had been illegally wiretapping hundreds of thousands of Americans led to the NSA being more accountable? As I recall, it was swept under the rug and the blame was placed on the whistleblowers.
- antics 15y ago
  That's not really the point, though. What you're describing is an invisible exercise of power. What I'm saying is, exercising power in a public fashion, particularly when such a display involves technology that people are nervous about to begin with, causes there to be more attention focused at the organization in question. Generally they avoid this because it means they have more oversight. Maybe this opens doors to things like the above, maybe it doesn't.
  - asolove 15y ago
    Yes, just like with backscatter radiation, shoe examinations and 3oz liquids at airports. They generated media heat, but didn't lead to any attention or oversight. Everyone is used to them now, I'm generally the only person in line to request the grope-down.

antics 15y ago

FUD, [edit:] IMHO. [not trying to be a dick.] The TSA is not an intelligence organization. Its job is not to secretly develop intelligence. It does not have the same problem of needing to not be accountable to the public as, say, the FBI or the NSA. Second, that claim is a lot stronger than you're pretending it is. If you're going to throw around a term like "police state", you will need a lot more proof than hand-wavy "every day they add new stuff like this". Everything in your argument is attributable to selection bias, and if you're going to level a convincing point, you will need to do more than appeal to the fact that people seem to want to believe this stuff. TBH when you say that, it makes me wonder if you really know what a police state even is. Third, my point is not that there is no abuse or that the government is incapable of doing bad things, it's that we should be evaluating pie-in-the-sky predictions with actual evidence. "We are becoming a police state, DUH" is not evidence. And neither is the ridiculous claim that tomorrow the OWS people will be barred from flying.

sp332 15y ago
The TSA maintains a secret watchlist and black list. The fact that this list seems to be arbitrary and disconnected from intelligence agencies doesn't make it better.
- antics 15y ago
  I totally agree.
- throwawayday 15y ago
  it actually makes it worse: you now have at least 2 agencies you have to watch
CamperBob 15y ago
To the extent they are not an intelligence organization, they are not effective, and a waste of funding.
- antics 15y ago
  Oh yeah, I totally agree with that. Seeing any of the organizations up close it is obvious that this is true.
ck2 15y ago
TSA operates VIPR which is doing intelligence gathering.

redthrowaway 15y ago

So the revelation that the NSA had been illegally wiretapping hundreds of thousands of Americans led to the NSA being more accountable? As I recall, it was swept under the rug and the blame was placed on the whistleblowers.

antics 15y ago
That's not really the point, though. What you're describing is an invisible exercise of power. What I'm saying is, exercising power in a public fashion, particularly when such a display involves technology that people are nervous about to begin with, causes there to be more attention focused at the organization in question. Generally they avoid this because it means they have more oversight. Maybe this opens doors to things like the above, maybe it doesn't.
- asolove 15y ago
  Yes, just like with backscatter radiation, shoe examinations and 3oz liquids at airports. They generated media heat, but didn't lead to any attention or oversight. Everyone is used to them now, I'm generally the only person in line to request the grope-down.