4 ms·

> In the last wave, only one country (Hungary) handled the problem sensible (building a wall, encouraging locals having more kids). You left out the part about

> In the last wave, only one country (Hungary) handled the problem sensible (building a wall, encouraging locals having more kids). You left out the part about turning to fascism. Anyway, none of what you mentioned helped immigrants nor resolved the reason for their immigration, so it seems more like the least sensible being that it was a complete failure. > The rest of the governments mostly pretended the problem doesn't exist. Excuse me? This isn't remotely true. It was the main topic for half a decade. We housed, clothed, fed and educated millions of people in need of our help and it was an amazing success!

Throwawayaerlei 4y ago
"You left out the part about turning to fascism." Why do you think people "turn to fascism" in the first place??
- guerrilla 4y ago
  Because they are racist natioanlist authoritarians and they perceive it as benefiting them.
  - usrn 4y ago
    Or they feel threatened.
- Viliam1234 4y ago
  > Why do you think people "turn to fascism" in the first place?? Seems to me it is often a combination of dissatisfaction with some problems and a charismatic leader that promises an easy fix (if you only give him a lot of power and allow him to silence the opponents). Sometimes the original problem isn't fixed at all and may even increase, sometimes it is replaced by more serious problems. But at the beginning it seems like things have improved, because the criticism has been silenced. Later, people who perceive the problems are afraid to speak up. This may seem like an advice for democracies to avoid letting problems grow too large, otherwise you risk fascism. While solving problems is generally a good advice, it is not necessarily a question of letting a problem grow too large. Sometimes the problem can be relatively small, but the timing is unfortunate and it happens right before the election. It is also a question of whether you have a charismatic wannabe fascist leader who is well prepared at the right moment. Two or three smaller problems appearing at the right moment can bring a disaster that wouldn't happen if those problems appeared a few months apart.
  - Throwawayaerlei 4y ago
    "Sometimes the problem can be relatively small, but the timing is unfortunate and it happens right before the election." Ummm, can you provide one or more example of this? The "Two or three smaller problems appearing at the right moment can bring a disaster" sounds plausible but just one small one?
  - DeathArrow 4y ago
    >Sometimes the original problem isn't fixed at all and may even increase, sometimes it is replaced by more serious problems. But at the beginning it seems like things have improved, because the criticism has been silenced. Later, people who perceive the problems are afraid to speak up. Sounds like what is happening now in most of the Western world.
tomp 4y ago
> You left out the part about turning to fascism "Everyone I disagree with is a Nazi." [1] In the real world, Orban was just reelected with overwhelming majority (increasing his vote share). He didn't contribute to the causes of said migration and didn't set out to solve the problem either, he just made sure his country and the people that elected him were minimally impacted. > We housed, clothed, fed and educated millions of people in need of our help and it was an amazing success! This is precisely the problem. In Europe, we maintain a high standard of living, and a social safety net. That simply isn't logically compatible with unrestricted illegal immigration (because the resources with which we run the social safety net aren't infinite). We need different solutions, preferably solving these problems (food, housing, ...) where they happen (would also be much cheaper!) [1] https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/021/818/hitlerbook.JPG https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/021/818/hit...
- guerrilla 4y ago
  "Everyone who calls someone is a Nazi just disagrees with them." It couldn't possibly be that they are actually racist nationalist traditionalist authoritarian capitalists who don't even bother hiding that fact from anyone and who literally blame Jews for the worlds problems. > In the real world, Orban was just reelected with overwhelming majority (increasing his vote share) You do realize Hitler was elected with an overwhelming majority too, right? > and the people that elected him were minimally impacted. Right, by letting people at their doorstep die. That's the problem. > This is precisely the problem. No, it was the solution to the actual existing problem. > unrestricted illegal immigration First, we weren't talking about "illegal immigration", we were talking about millions of refugees. Second, nothing about it was unrestricted.
  - Throwawayaerlei 4y ago
    "You do realize Hitler was elected with an overwhelming majority too, right?" Hitler or rather the Nazi party infamously didn't win "with an overwhelming majority" in November 1932. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/November_1932_German_federal_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/November_1932_German_federal_e... reminds me they "lost 34 seats and again failed to form a coalition government in the Reichstag" (emphasis added). They gained power by non-electoral means after this, starting with a deal where President Hindenburg made Hitler chancellor and they had "a short-lived coalition government formed by the NSDAP and the German National People's Party (DNVP)." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%27s_rise_to_power#Seizure_of_control_(1931%E2%80%931933) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%27s_rise_to_power...)

Throwawayaerlei 4y ago

"You left out the part about turning to fascism." Why do you think people "turn to fascism" in the first place??

guerrilla 4y ago
Because they are racist natioanlist authoritarians and they perceive it as benefiting them.
- usrn 4y ago
  Or they feel threatened.
Viliam1234 4y ago
> Why do you think people "turn to fascism" in the first place?? Seems to me it is often a combination of dissatisfaction with some problems and a charismatic leader that promises an easy fix (if you only give him a lot of power and allow him to silence the opponents). Sometimes the original problem isn't fixed at all and may even increase, sometimes it is replaced by more serious problems. But at the beginning it seems like things have improved, because the criticism has been silenced. Later, people who perceive the problems are afraid to speak up. This may seem like an advice for democracies to avoid letting problems grow too large, otherwise you risk fascism. While solving problems is generally a good advice, it is not necessarily a question of letting a problem grow too large. Sometimes the problem can be relatively small, but the timing is unfortunate and it happens right before the election. It is also a question of whether you have a charismatic wannabe fascist leader who is well prepared at the right moment. Two or three smaller problems appearing at the right moment can bring a disaster that wouldn't happen if those problems appeared a few months apart.
- Throwawayaerlei 4y ago
  "Sometimes the problem can be relatively small, but the timing is unfortunate and it happens right before the election." Ummm, can you provide one or more example of this? The "Two or three smaller problems appearing at the right moment can bring a disaster" sounds plausible but just one small one?
- DeathArrow 4y ago
  >Sometimes the original problem isn't fixed at all and may even increase, sometimes it is replaced by more serious problems. But at the beginning it seems like things have improved, because the criticism has been silenced. Later, people who perceive the problems are afraid to speak up. Sounds like what is happening now in most of the Western world.

tomp 4y ago

> You left out the part about turning to fascism "Everyone I disagree with is a Nazi." [1] In the real world, Orban was just reelected with overwhelming majority (increasing his vote share). He didn't contribute to the causes of said migration and didn't set out to solve the problem either, he just made sure his country and the people that elected him were minimally impacted. > We housed, clothed, fed and educated millions of people in need of our help and it was an amazing success! This is precisely the problem. In Europe, we maintain a high standard of living, and a social safety net. That simply isn't logically compatible with unrestricted illegal immigration (because the resources with which we run the social safety net aren't infinite). We need different solutions, preferably solving these problems (food, housing, ...) where they happen (would also be much cheaper!) [1] https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/021/818/hitlerbook.JPG https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/021/818/hit...

guerrilla 4y ago
"Everyone who calls someone is a Nazi just disagrees with them." It couldn't possibly be that they are actually racist nationalist traditionalist authoritarian capitalists who don't even bother hiding that fact from anyone and who literally blame Jews for the worlds problems. > In the real world, Orban was just reelected with overwhelming majority (increasing his vote share) You do realize Hitler was elected with an overwhelming majority too, right? > and the people that elected him were minimally impacted. Right, by letting people at their doorstep die. That's the problem. > This is precisely the problem. No, it was the solution to the actual existing problem. > unrestricted illegal immigration First, we weren't talking about "illegal immigration", we were talking about millions of refugees. Second, nothing about it was unrestricted.
- Throwawayaerlei 4y ago
  "You do realize Hitler was elected with an overwhelming majority too, right?" Hitler or rather the Nazi party infamously didn't win "with an overwhelming majority" in November 1932. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/November_1932_German_federal_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/November_1932_German_federal_e... reminds me they "lost 34 seats and again failed to form a coalition government in the Reichstag" (emphasis added). They gained power by non-electoral means after this, starting with a deal where President Hindenburg made Hitler chancellor and they had "a short-lived coalition government formed by the NSDAP and the German National People's Party (DNVP)." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%27s_rise_to_power#Seizure_of_control_(1931%E2%80%931933) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%27s_rise_to_power...)