4 ms·

Maybe this works as an IC that has no collaborative aspect to their day-to-day but as an IC leader async adds material pauses and latency into projects. If eve

Maybe this works as an IC that has no collaborative aspect to their day-to-day but as an IC leader async adds material pauses and latency into projects. If everybody is ok with everything taking longer at the start and end of projects then cool (the middle implementation phase is less impacted) but taking a day to answer a question that could have taken minutes is not a bonus.

ryanSrich 4y ago
I’m a CTO and startup founder. We ship faster and more often than any team I’ve worked on or observed (multiple times per week). I think your assumption are bad.
- notyourwork 4y ago
  Without being dismissive of your opinion, being the CTO of a startup doesn’t really say much. I can be the CTO of a startup after I finish an undergrad in computer science or I can be the CTO of a multiple rounds of funding unicorn. So qualifying your opinion with the generic “I’m a CTO and founder” perhaps isn’t a sufficient credence to suggest your experience holds clout.
  - ryanSrich 4y ago
    The reason I mentioned my title is that I don’t think many would consider a CTO an IC. Saying remote and async only works as an IC is wrong.
db48x 4y ago
Asking a quick question that only takes a few minutes is a nice bonus for you, but for the person you asked it was an interruption that cost them 20 minutes or more of focus. That might be ok if the person you asked has a job that is designed to be interrupt–driven (aka a manager), but if this was another engineer then this wasn’t a net benefit. But the other side of the coin is that if you do need to ask a question and get an answer, then what is wrong with a text chat mechanism like IRC or Slack or whatever? These tools also work for real collaboration between engineers too.
- tshaddox 4y ago
  Seems like there are two very different modes of development being mentioned here. You seem to be describing a mode where you just need to concentrate and bang out your lines of code for the day. The previous comment seems to be referring to creative, collaborative development. The industry probably needs both, but I’m much more personally interested in the latter, and I’m worried that async/remote is disastrous for that mode in ways that might not be realized for years. To use a crude example, if you’re in a rock band composing songs together, you would never consider that suggesting a change to the riff the bass player is playing would be “an interruption that cost them 20 minutes of focus.”
  - ekianjo 4y ago
    > To use a crude example, if you’re in a rock band composing songs together, you would never consider that interrupting the bass player to suggest a slightly different riff would be “an interruption that cost them 20 minutes of focus Bad analogies are not very persuasive
    - tshaddox 4y ago
      If you think software development can be a collaborative creative process, it’s really not a terrible analogy.
      - ekianjo 4y ago
        This analogy sucks because a rock band cannot make songs without actually playing together over and over again. You can however build software in modules or independent parts as long as you have clear specs about what each part should do and proper testing. Thats why you can outsource some software dev but you cannot outsource a rock band. Terrible analogy. If you want to pick something that makes more sense to compare, it would be something that is engineering related.
        tshaddox 4y ago
leetcrew 4y ago
I agree with you, there are absolutely pros and cons to async work, and sometimes the cons outweigh the pros. I would point out though that not everyone operates at the scale where everyone can come into the same office every day and meet face to face. I work closely with engineers on both us coasts, in india, and in western europe. whether I work out of my apartment or the nearest office does not really affect the speed or quality of communication with my colleagues.
hcarvalhoalves 4y ago
Yes, but synchronous communication can and should be the exception. In loco working policy basically requires entire teams to live by and commute just so some manager doesn’t have to have the discipline of scheduling meetings in advance and ask things across the desk.
lupire 4y ago
Remote doesn't mean asynchronous, unless timezones/working hours are very different.
legulere 4y ago
You recognize yourself that async working means more latency. Latency and throughput are often sitting on the opposite ends of a spectrum. With async you can have less interruptions for ICs and increase their throughput.

ryanSrich 4y ago

I’m a CTO and startup founder. We ship faster and more often than any team I’ve worked on or observed (multiple times per week). I think your assumption are bad.

notyourwork 4y ago
Without being dismissive of your opinion, being the CTO of a startup doesn’t really say much. I can be the CTO of a startup after I finish an undergrad in computer science or I can be the CTO of a multiple rounds of funding unicorn. So qualifying your opinion with the generic “I’m a CTO and founder” perhaps isn’t a sufficient credence to suggest your experience holds clout.
- ryanSrich 4y ago
  The reason I mentioned my title is that I don’t think many would consider a CTO an IC. Saying remote and async only works as an IC is wrong.

db48x 4y ago

Asking a quick question that only takes a few minutes is a nice bonus for you, but for the person you asked it was an interruption that cost them 20 minutes or more of focus. That might be ok if the person you asked has a job that is designed to be interrupt–driven (aka a manager), but if this was another engineer then this wasn’t a net benefit. But the other side of the coin is that if you do need to ask a question and get an answer, then what is wrong with a text chat mechanism like IRC or Slack or whatever? These tools also work for real collaboration between engineers too.

tshaddox 4y ago
Seems like there are two very different modes of development being mentioned here. You seem to be describing a mode where you just need to concentrate and bang out your lines of code for the day. The previous comment seems to be referring to creative, collaborative development. The industry probably needs both, but I’m much more personally interested in the latter, and I’m worried that async/remote is disastrous for that mode in ways that might not be realized for years. To use a crude example, if you’re in a rock band composing songs together, you would never consider that suggesting a change to the riff the bass player is playing would be “an interruption that cost them 20 minutes of focus.”
- ekianjo 4y ago
  > To use a crude example, if you’re in a rock band composing songs together, you would never consider that interrupting the bass player to suggest a slightly different riff would be “an interruption that cost them 20 minutes of focus Bad analogies are not very persuasive
  - tshaddox 4y ago
    If you think software development can be a collaborative creative process, it’s really not a terrible analogy.
    - ekianjo 4y ago
      This analogy sucks because a rock band cannot make songs without actually playing together over and over again. You can however build software in modules or independent parts as long as you have clear specs about what each part should do and proper testing. Thats why you can outsource some software dev but you cannot outsource a rock band. Terrible analogy. If you want to pick something that makes more sense to compare, it would be something that is engineering related.
      - tshaddox 4y ago

leetcrew 4y ago

I agree with you, there are absolutely pros and cons to async work, and sometimes the cons outweigh the pros. I would point out though that not everyone operates at the scale where everyone can come into the same office every day and meet face to face. I work closely with engineers on both us coasts, in india, and in western europe. whether I work out of my apartment or the nearest office does not really affect the speed or quality of communication with my colleagues.

hcarvalhoalves 4y ago

Yes, but synchronous communication can and should be the exception. In loco working policy basically requires entire teams to live by and commute just so some manager doesn’t have to have the discipline of scheduling meetings in advance and ask things across the desk.

lupire 4y ago

Remote doesn't mean asynchronous, unless timezones/working hours are very different.

legulere 4y ago

You recognize yourself that async working means more latency. Latency and throughput are often sitting on the opposite ends of a spectrum. With async you can have less interruptions for ICs and increase their throughput.