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I tend to agree but I want to add some reasons. First is that it's clearly ineffective. As much propaganda as we hear, Russia's still getting what it wants. Ru

I tend to agree but I want to add some reasons. First is that it's clearly ineffective. As much propaganda as we hear, Russia's still getting what it wants. Russia pulled out of most of the country the day after Zelensky announced they might not go in NATO after all [1]. The south (which is strategic to Russia - see my other comment[2]) is theirs. The ruble is better than it was before the war even with lifted capital controls and lowered interest rates. Most Russians don't seem to be too effected either. Second, even if it were effective, it seems like somewhat of a major contradiction to claim that the Russian people are powerless victims of a violent authoritarian regime while at the same time expecting them to go to war with their overclass in order to stop this after starving them into it. It also ignores the fact that they did not do so in nearly a century of brutal repression and, at times, starvation. Are we supposed to wait another 69 years for sanctions to take effect, recalling that the fall of the USSR wasn't even violent regime change or capitulation but rather a decision that benefited the overclass itself? 1. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/zelensky-ukraine-conflict-nato-russia-b2037181.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/zelensky-ukr... 2. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31549358 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31549358

Viliam1234 4y ago
> As much propaganda as we hear, Russia's still getting what it wants. Russia pulled out of most of the country the day after Zelensky announced they might not go in NATO after all. This is Russian propaganda. First, NATO does not accept new members while they are in the middle of a military conflict. And Russia is occupying parts of Ukraine since 2014. So it's not like Zelensky's words changed something; he just commented on the obvious. Second, nope, Russia absolutely didn't get what Putin wants. You may want to read his essay "On the historical units of Russians and Ukrainians". He wants the entire Ukraine to become a part of Russia. In reality, the Russian army was near Kiev trying to capture it, failed, was pushed back. To save face, Putin now says that this is exactly what he wanted. Except, yesterday he said something different, and no doubt tomorrow he will say something different again.
- guerrilla 4y ago
  > This is Russian propaganda. Oh are Zelensky and The Independent Russian propaganda now? [1] Sorry, I can't keep up with you people. What about The Hill and AP[2]? > Second, nope, Russia absolutely didn't get what Putin wants. You may want to read his essay "On the historical units of Russians and Ukrainians". He wants the entire Ukraine to become a part of Russia. So now you buy into Russian propaganda instead of political science. Interesting. > In reality, the Russian army was near Kiev trying to capture it, failed, was pushed back. To save face, Putin now says that this is exactly what he wanted. Except, yesterday he said something different, and no doubt tomorrow he will say something different again. Sure thing, buddy, just coincidentally the day after Zelensky announced Ukraine won't go in NATO. 1. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/zelensky-ukraine-conflict-nato-russia-b2037181.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/zelensky-ukr... 2. https://thehill.com/policy/international/598335-zelensky-concedes-ukraine-unlikely-to-join-nato-seeks-security/ https://thehill.com/policy/international/598335-zelensky-con...
  - Viliam1234 4y ago
    > So now you buy into Russian propaganda instead of political science. Interesting. There is a difference between believing propaganda and drawing conclusions from the fact that the propaganda exists. As an example, imagine that there is a guy called Hitler, who writes a book saying "Jews are trying to destroy the world, but I am going to save the world by destroying them". If you read the book and conclude "this Hitler guy is going to save the world", you are believing the propaganda. If you read the book and conclude "this Hitler guy seems to hate Jews", you are drawing a conclusion. In both cases you have read the book and came to a conclusion, but the process was quite different. Similarly, if a guy called Putin writes a book saying "Ukrainians are not a real nation, they are actually a part of my nation and it's a shame that they have a separate country", then if you conclude "the Ukrainians are not a real nation", you are believing the propaganda, but if you conclude "this Putin guy will probably try to annex Ukraine", you are drawing a conclusion. Anyway, it's not just the book, it's also the fact that Russian tanks were already approaching Kiev (before they ran out of gas, and were destroyed or stolen by tractors), the news articles celebrating the capture of Kiev that were written in advance and accidentally published, etc. A large part of reality would need to be different to make "actually, Putin never wanted to conquer Ukraine" a plausible hypothesis.
lotusmars 4y ago
> Russia pulled out of most of the country the day after Zelensky announced they might not go in NATO after all They didn't. The only time they made a major retreat was when they overstretched and Kyiv offensive that was expected to be quick failed. They've moved batallions to regroup for Donbas offensive leaving behind Bucha and other horrors. No connection to anything related to NATO. If anything "NATO enlargement" rhethoric is just a coverup. Estonia is part of the NATO and it's bordering Russia with travel distance of 210 km to St. Petersburg.
- guerrilla 4y ago
  > The only time they made a major retreat was when they overstretched and Kyiv offensive that was expected to be quick failed. Yeah, that's false. Google is your friend on this one. Next time pay attention to the war you want to comment on. > No connection to anything related to NATO. If anything "NATO enlargement" rhethoric is just a coverup. Estonia is part of the NATO and it's bordering Russia with travel distance of 210 km to St. Petersburg. Also false. Nobody in IR actually believe this propaganda. But yeah, there are many other things Russia also wants. I linked the comment where I outlined some of them.
  - lotusmars 4y ago
    > Google is your friend on this one. Petersburg shills are lazy these days.
    - guerrilla 4y ago
      "Everyone I disagree with is a Russian troll." No I don't support Putin, the fascist, the Russian overclass or any of their fans. At the same time, it's pretty easy to verify what I said. I believe in you, you can do it. It doesn't lend us any credibility to lie or be ignorant about what's actually been happening. We can do our best to present the truth and oppose the Russian state, it's propaganda and it's invasion at the same time. You don't need to choose between the two.

Viliam1234 4y ago

> As much propaganda as we hear, Russia's still getting what it wants. Russia pulled out of most of the country the day after Zelensky announced they might not go in NATO after all. This is Russian propaganda. First, NATO does not accept new members while they are in the middle of a military conflict. And Russia is occupying parts of Ukraine since 2014. So it's not like Zelensky's words changed something; he just commented on the obvious. Second, nope, Russia absolutely didn't get what Putin wants. You may want to read his essay "On the historical units of Russians and Ukrainians". He wants the entire Ukraine to become a part of Russia. In reality, the Russian army was near Kiev trying to capture it, failed, was pushed back. To save face, Putin now says that this is exactly what he wanted. Except, yesterday he said something different, and no doubt tomorrow he will say something different again.

guerrilla 4y ago
> This is Russian propaganda. Oh are Zelensky and The Independent Russian propaganda now? [1] Sorry, I can't keep up with you people. What about The Hill and AP[2]? > Second, nope, Russia absolutely didn't get what Putin wants. You may want to read his essay "On the historical units of Russians and Ukrainians". He wants the entire Ukraine to become a part of Russia. So now you buy into Russian propaganda instead of political science. Interesting. > In reality, the Russian army was near Kiev trying to capture it, failed, was pushed back. To save face, Putin now says that this is exactly what he wanted. Except, yesterday he said something different, and no doubt tomorrow he will say something different again. Sure thing, buddy, just coincidentally the day after Zelensky announced Ukraine won't go in NATO. 1. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/zelensky-ukraine-conflict-nato-russia-b2037181.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/zelensky-ukr... 2. https://thehill.com/policy/international/598335-zelensky-concedes-ukraine-unlikely-to-join-nato-seeks-security/ https://thehill.com/policy/international/598335-zelensky-con...
- Viliam1234 4y ago
  > So now you buy into Russian propaganda instead of political science. Interesting. There is a difference between believing propaganda and drawing conclusions from the fact that the propaganda exists. As an example, imagine that there is a guy called Hitler, who writes a book saying "Jews are trying to destroy the world, but I am going to save the world by destroying them". If you read the book and conclude "this Hitler guy is going to save the world", you are believing the propaganda. If you read the book and conclude "this Hitler guy seems to hate Jews", you are drawing a conclusion. In both cases you have read the book and came to a conclusion, but the process was quite different. Similarly, if a guy called Putin writes a book saying "Ukrainians are not a real nation, they are actually a part of my nation and it's a shame that they have a separate country", then if you conclude "the Ukrainians are not a real nation", you are believing the propaganda, but if you conclude "this Putin guy will probably try to annex Ukraine", you are drawing a conclusion. Anyway, it's not just the book, it's also the fact that Russian tanks were already approaching Kiev (before they ran out of gas, and were destroyed or stolen by tractors), the news articles celebrating the capture of Kiev that were written in advance and accidentally published, etc. A large part of reality would need to be different to make "actually, Putin never wanted to conquer Ukraine" a plausible hypothesis.

lotusmars 4y ago

> Russia pulled out of most of the country the day after Zelensky announced they might not go in NATO after all They didn't. The only time they made a major retreat was when they overstretched and Kyiv offensive that was expected to be quick failed. They've moved batallions to regroup for Donbas offensive leaving behind Bucha and other horrors. No connection to anything related to NATO. If anything "NATO enlargement" rhethoric is just a coverup. Estonia is part of the NATO and it's bordering Russia with travel distance of 210 km to St. Petersburg.

guerrilla 4y ago
> The only time they made a major retreat was when they overstretched and Kyiv offensive that was expected to be quick failed. Yeah, that's false. Google is your friend on this one. Next time pay attention to the war you want to comment on. > No connection to anything related to NATO. If anything "NATO enlargement" rhethoric is just a coverup. Estonia is part of the NATO and it's bordering Russia with travel distance of 210 km to St. Petersburg. Also false. Nobody in IR actually believe this propaganda. But yeah, there are many other things Russia also wants. I linked the comment where I outlined some of them.
- lotusmars 4y ago
  > Google is your friend on this one. Petersburg shills are lazy these days.
  - guerrilla 4y ago
    "Everyone I disagree with is a Russian troll." No I don't support Putin, the fascist, the Russian overclass or any of their fans. At the same time, it's pretty easy to verify what I said. I believe in you, you can do it. It doesn't lend us any credibility to lie or be ignorant about what's actually been happening. We can do our best to present the truth and oppose the Russian state, it's propaganda and it's invasion at the same time. You don't need to choose between the two.