4 ms·

You can turn also turn your head and move around in your room, i.e. your whole room could be full of separate displays, or just pieces of code floating in space

by Geee 4y ago

You can turn also turn your head and move around in your room, i.e. your whole room could be full of separate displays, or just pieces of code floating in space. It's not just how much you see at a time, but how easily you can switch context.

layer8 4y ago
Counterpoint: It’s faster to Alt+Tab (or using other keyboard shortcuts) than to move around the room.
- kurthr 4y ago
  Move around a room? I'd compare it to eye motion of 30-60deg, that's a saccade of about 30-40ms. I don't think most fingers can move that fast from the home row, probably more comparable to head motion
  - layer8 4y ago
    The parent was talking about moving around in a room filled with virtual displays. Regarding eye motion, I already use a screen filling my non-peripheral field-of-view (~120°), so any additional screen would require significant head movement.
    - kurthr 4y ago
      You sit with your eyes closer than half the width of your screen? That is either a HUGE screen and/or you sit with eyes less than 14" away, which is at least novel? Of course you need two of those screens to fill your field of view, unless you have a square screen that goes below your desk, but I'm sure that's available somewhere.
      - layer8 4y ago
        I’m near-sighted, and checking now it’s really more like 90-100° horizontally, but moving my eyes outside of that range without moving my head is actually not comfortable. My subjective impression is that the nonperipheral visual field isn’t square. I would find 3:2 displays optimal, or maybe rather 16:11. While a 16:9 or 16:10 display could be extended vertically to fill more of the visual field, that extended portion is not large enough to usefully fit a second monitor there (without head movement).
        kurthr 4y ago
        Eyes (lenses/retina) are spherical with roughly (slightly more than) 100deg field of view each and a little more than 20deg left/right overlap at the nose. That gives a total range of almost 180deg horizontal-yaw and 100deg vertical-pitch. You don't even notice most eye motion... if you did then every time you moved 2.5deg you'ld think about it. Apparent field of view is made up of many saccades that allow your much higher high resolution fovea to cover the interesting parts as it moves/scans/jumps around. By the time you're +/- 10deg from center, you've lost 5x in resolution. If you're like most people and the horizontal field is close to max, you'll do better stacking monitors than putting them side/side. Inter pupillary distance is a bit over 2in (~65mm), but that's usually small compared to screen distance, which is why I say roughly square (~16:14). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fovea_centralis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fovea_centralis
  - orbital-decay 4y ago
    It's not about switching time, it's about cognitive load. If any dense information creeps into your far peripheral vision, it might as well not exist because you have to locate it. During any concentrated work, only something you can fit in the center of your binocular field of vision (roughly speaking) doesn't cause severe mental context switching. I tried to work on three 16:9 displays for some time, and found it exhausting. The cognitive overload isn't worth it, workspace switching with a hotkey turned out to be far easier for me. That's not even mentioning constant neck movement. Maybe it's just me though, I can't speak for different people; but I strongly suspect it's the same for many.
    - pharke 4y ago
      I'd imagine it changing the way I work to be closer to what I do when working on a physical project. Like when building a book case I have various pieces laid out in different stages of completion. My context switching involves moving physically from one to the other which provides a physical reinforcement to the mental change I have to make. Just like I have all the shelves on one bench ready to be sanded and the trim on another being cut to length I could have my server side code on one wall and the client code on another. It'd probably be a lot better for my posture and fitness to physically move from one to the other rather than be glued to a chair for 8 hours.
    - runnerup 4y ago
      > During any concentrated work, only something you can fit in the center of your binocular field of vision (roughly speaking) doesn't cause severe mental context switching. I mean this doesn't seem to be true for anyone working in the trades. "Mise-en-place" allowed me to tend a 24-foot-long bar by myself with 60+ customers. At the time, I was essentially a highly trained, top performing athlete. Just because I can't see the cash register / margarita machine / well drinks / etc... it doesn't mean it's not an extension of my body. It is possible for your entire workshop to become a second-nature extension of self, not just the desk in front of your face. I think part of this discussion is: "What can be part of a singular focused task vs. what requires some amount of 'context switching'?" And its not always super obvious. Practicing a workflow can integrate context-switches so that it becomes one singular focused task. But VR/AR can also assist with neurological training by allowing you to switch environments when you switch contexts. For someone who is WFH in a studio apartment it can separate their "gaming desk" from their "work desk" from their "hobby desk" ... or even their "React desk" from their "Concurrency-wrangling desk" from their "Email/Communications battlestation". This could enable much faster context switching -- meeting in 30 seconds? pop over to your "Virtual Conferencing Room". Then come back to your sanctum of concurrency troubleshooting.
- TheOtherHobbes 4y ago
  It really isn't because you can't see everything at once. And I'm sure VR/AR will provide equally fast shortcuts for moving between anchor spaces. I have three monitors, and it's still not enough. I would be thrilled if each of my monitors had four times the apparent area in a 3D space that layered applications and documents behind each other in some approximately intuitive way.
  - layer8 4y ago
    You also can’t see everything at once with VR or with multiple monitors. You have to shift your focus and move your eyes/your head. It is though probably a matter of preference whether you want to have your windows etc. layed out in 2D or 3D space that you have to move around in, or whether you want buttons you can blindly press to have the desired window pop up immediately right in front of you where you’re currently looking at.
RexM 4y ago
Haha now I can try and figure out where I put that function I’m looking for as if it were the hex wrench included in IKEA furniture.

by Geee 4y ago

layer8 4y ago

Counterpoint: It’s faster to Alt+Tab (or using other keyboard shortcuts) than to move around the room.

kurthr 4y ago
Move around a room? I'd compare it to eye motion of 30-60deg, that's a saccade of about 30-40ms. I don't think most fingers can move that fast from the home row, probably more comparable to head motion
- layer8 4y ago
  The parent was talking about moving around in a room filled with virtual displays. Regarding eye motion, I already use a screen filling my non-peripheral field-of-view (~120°), so any additional screen would require significant head movement.
  - kurthr 4y ago
    You sit with your eyes closer than half the width of your screen? That is either a HUGE screen and/or you sit with eyes less than 14" away, which is at least novel? Of course you need two of those screens to fill your field of view, unless you have a square screen that goes below your desk, but I'm sure that's available somewhere.
    - layer8 4y ago
      I’m near-sighted, and checking now it’s really more like 90-100° horizontally, but moving my eyes outside of that range without moving my head is actually not comfortable. My subjective impression is that the nonperipheral visual field isn’t square. I would find 3:2 displays optimal, or maybe rather 16:11. While a 16:9 or 16:10 display could be extended vertically to fill more of the visual field, that extended portion is not large enough to usefully fit a second monitor there (without head movement).
      - kurthr 4y ago
        Eyes (lenses/retina) are spherical with roughly (slightly more than) 100deg field of view each and a little more than 20deg left/right overlap at the nose. That gives a total range of almost 180deg horizontal-yaw and 100deg vertical-pitch. You don't even notice most eye motion... if you did then every time you moved 2.5deg you'ld think about it. Apparent field of view is made up of many saccades that allow your much higher high resolution fovea to cover the interesting parts as it moves/scans/jumps around. By the time you're +/- 10deg from center, you've lost 5x in resolution. If you're like most people and the horizontal field is close to max, you'll do better stacking monitors than putting them side/side. Inter pupillary distance is a bit over 2in (~65mm), but that's usually small compared to screen distance, which is why I say roughly square (~16:14). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fovea_centralis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fovea_centralis
- orbital-decay 4y ago
  It's not about switching time, it's about cognitive load. If any dense information creeps into your far peripheral vision, it might as well not exist because you have to locate it. During any concentrated work, only something you can fit in the center of your binocular field of vision (roughly speaking) doesn't cause severe mental context switching. I tried to work on three 16:9 displays for some time, and found it exhausting. The cognitive overload isn't worth it, workspace switching with a hotkey turned out to be far easier for me. That's not even mentioning constant neck movement. Maybe it's just me though, I can't speak for different people; but I strongly suspect it's the same for many.
  - pharke 4y ago
    I'd imagine it changing the way I work to be closer to what I do when working on a physical project. Like when building a book case I have various pieces laid out in different stages of completion. My context switching involves moving physically from one to the other which provides a physical reinforcement to the mental change I have to make. Just like I have all the shelves on one bench ready to be sanded and the trim on another being cut to length I could have my server side code on one wall and the client code on another. It'd probably be a lot better for my posture and fitness to physically move from one to the other rather than be glued to a chair for 8 hours.
  - runnerup 4y ago
    > During any concentrated work, only something you can fit in the center of your binocular field of vision (roughly speaking) doesn't cause severe mental context switching. I mean this doesn't seem to be true for anyone working in the trades. "Mise-en-place" allowed me to tend a 24-foot-long bar by myself with 60+ customers. At the time, I was essentially a highly trained, top performing athlete. Just because I can't see the cash register / margarita machine / well drinks / etc... it doesn't mean it's not an extension of my body. It is possible for your entire workshop to become a second-nature extension of self, not just the desk in front of your face. I think part of this discussion is: "What can be part of a singular focused task vs. what requires some amount of 'context switching'?" And its not always super obvious. Practicing a workflow can integrate context-switches so that it becomes one singular focused task. But VR/AR can also assist with neurological training by allowing you to switch environments when you switch contexts. For someone who is WFH in a studio apartment it can separate their "gaming desk" from their "work desk" from their "hobby desk" ... or even their "React desk" from their "Concurrency-wrangling desk" from their "Email/Communications battlestation". This could enable much faster context switching -- meeting in 30 seconds? pop over to your "Virtual Conferencing Room". Then come back to your sanctum of concurrency troubleshooting.
TheOtherHobbes 4y ago
It really isn't because you can't see everything at once. And I'm sure VR/AR will provide equally fast shortcuts for moving between anchor spaces. I have three monitors, and it's still not enough. I would be thrilled if each of my monitors had four times the apparent area in a 3D space that layered applications and documents behind each other in some approximately intuitive way.
- layer8 4y ago
  You also can’t see everything at once with VR or with multiple monitors. You have to shift your focus and move your eyes/your head. It is though probably a matter of preference whether you want to have your windows etc. layed out in 2D or 3D space that you have to move around in, or whether you want buttons you can blindly press to have the desired window pop up immediately right in front of you where you’re currently looking at.

RexM 4y ago

Haha now I can try and figure out where I put that function I’m looking for as if it were the hex wrench included in IKEA furniture.