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> The idea is that we just don't have enough productivity to sustain slightly longer roads, and live in the same houses we used to have on farms in 1920s is ins

> The idea is that we just don't have enough productivity to sustain slightly longer roads, and live in the same houses we used to have on farms in 1920s is insulting to reader's intelligence. Plenty of academic research/literature on this, as well as books: > Chuck is not the first to point out the financial inefficiencies associated with sprawl. Robert Burchell of Rutgers[1] has led several important studies showing the substantially increased municipal costs associated with sprawl development; my then-colleague Matt Raimi devoted a well-researched chapter to it in our 1999 book Once There Were Greenfields.[2] At NRDC, we undertook a small empirical study[3] in Cleveland and Chicago that confirmed the additional operating and maintenance costs associated with suburban wastewater infrastructure when compared with that in the cities. * https://www.smartcitiesdive.com/ex/sustainablecitiescollective/how-sprawl-bernie-madoff/26448/ https://www.smartcitiesdive.com/ex/sustainablecitiescollecti... Strong Towns is only reporting what the literature is saying. You're free to be skeptical, but that's what they've concluded from the empirical evidence. The claim is falsifiable if you want to get into testing it. Measure the cost of services per acre/hectare of low-density and of high-density, then measure the revenues. You'll see which is net positive and which is net negative: > Urban3 is a consulting company that helps cities better understand the economic impact of development. They have worked with many American cities to better understand and visualize the costs of development, and uncover which properties are productive, and which are not. Some municipalities have been willing to share that information, and it has provided a fascinating glimpse into the financial problems caused by sprawling car-centric suburban development. * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Nw6qyyrTeI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Nw6qyyrTeI Lafayette, LA case study from the video: * https://www.urbanthree.com/case-study/lafayette-la/ https://www.urbanthree.com/case-study/lafayette-la/ * https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2017/1/9/the-real-reason-your-city-has-no-money https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2017/1/9/the-real-reason... This is an accounting and ROI issue. If you don't want to believe the numbers… ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

forum_ghost 4y ago
>Measure the cost of services per acre/hectare of low-density and of high-density, then measure the revenues. You'll see which is net positive and which is net negative I have no interest in living in shoeboxes. > This is an accounting and ROI issue. Nope. Some just think quality of life isn’t about accounting and ROI. Do enjoy your shoebox though.
- otterley 4y ago
  Don’t be insulting and dismissive here. It’s against our community guidelines.
- mattcwilson 4y ago
  If you aren’t willing to look at the data, and are admitting you’re closed off to even considering the idea (“I have no interest”), how do you know your head isn’t fully in the sand, or that you’re not part of the problem?
- throw0101a 4y ago
  > I have no interest in living in shoeboxes. No need. See the concept of "streetcar suburbs" and how things used to be built pre-WW2: * https://www.google.com/maps/place/150+Geoffrey+St,+Toronto,+ON https://www.google.com/maps/place/150+Geoffrey+St,+Toronto,+... * https://www.google.com/maps/place/125+Hampton+Ave,+Toronto,+ON https://www.google.com/maps/place/125+Hampton+Ave,+Toronto,+... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streetcar_suburb https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streetcar_suburb * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWsGBRdK2N0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWsGBRdK2N0 High(er) density does not mean Manhattan and Hong Kong levels of density. 50-100 people per hectare (Hamburg, Paris, Stockholm, London, Brussels) is not crazy high: * https://transportgeography.org/contents/chapter4/environmental-footprint-of-transportation/urban-density-energy-consumption/ https://transportgeography.org/contents/chapter4/environment... A video of what's available via a fifteen minute bicycle ride from Amsterdam: * https://twitter.com/notjustbikes/status/1528394830086275075 https://twitter.com/notjustbikes/status/1528394830086275075 See also: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO6txCZpbsQ&t=9m28s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO6txCZpbsQ&t=9m28s Fifteen minutes pedalling in one direction is downtown, fifteen minutes in the other is farm land. > Nope. Some just think quality of life isn’t about accounting and ROI. Do enjoy your shoebox though. * https://www.google.com/maps/place/50+Geoffrey+St,+Toronto,+ON https://www.google.com/maps/place/50+Geoffrey+St,+Toronto,+O... * https://www.google.com/maps/place/20+Sparkhall+Ave,+Toronto,+ON https://www.google.com/maps/place/20+Sparkhall+Ave,+Toronto,... IMHO you have a myopic view of what "urban" means. Further, what will your quality of life be like if your municipality/county goes bankrupt: * https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/articles/2020/07/07/by-the-numbers-a-look-at-municipal-bankruptcies-over-the-past-20-years https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/articles/... * https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=60740288 https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=607402... Or if taxes need to be raised over and over to keep things in a state of good repair and other services suffer. A growing portion of your income could end up going to taxes with less left over to discretionary spending because the place you're living in made bad financial decisions.

forum_ghost 4y ago

>Measure the cost of services per acre/hectare of low-density and of high-density, then measure the revenues. You'll see which is net positive and which is net negative I have no interest in living in shoeboxes. > This is an accounting and ROI issue. Nope. Some just think quality of life isn’t about accounting and ROI. Do enjoy your shoebox though.

otterley 4y ago
Don’t be insulting and dismissive here. It’s against our community guidelines.
mattcwilson 4y ago
If you aren’t willing to look at the data, and are admitting you’re closed off to even considering the idea (“I have no interest”), how do you know your head isn’t fully in the sand, or that you’re not part of the problem?
throw0101a 4y ago
> I have no interest in living in shoeboxes. No need. See the concept of "streetcar suburbs" and how things used to be built pre-WW2: * https://www.google.com/maps/place/150+Geoffrey+St,+Toronto,+ON https://www.google.com/maps/place/150+Geoffrey+St,+Toronto,+... * https://www.google.com/maps/place/125+Hampton+Ave,+Toronto,+ON https://www.google.com/maps/place/125+Hampton+Ave,+Toronto,+... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streetcar_suburb https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streetcar_suburb * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWsGBRdK2N0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWsGBRdK2N0 High(er) density does not mean Manhattan and Hong Kong levels of density. 50-100 people per hectare (Hamburg, Paris, Stockholm, London, Brussels) is not crazy high: * https://transportgeography.org/contents/chapter4/environmental-footprint-of-transportation/urban-density-energy-consumption/ https://transportgeography.org/contents/chapter4/environment... A video of what's available via a fifteen minute bicycle ride from Amsterdam: * https://twitter.com/notjustbikes/status/1528394830086275075 https://twitter.com/notjustbikes/status/1528394830086275075 See also: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO6txCZpbsQ&t=9m28s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO6txCZpbsQ&t=9m28s Fifteen minutes pedalling in one direction is downtown, fifteen minutes in the other is farm land. > Nope. Some just think quality of life isn’t about accounting and ROI. Do enjoy your shoebox though. * https://www.google.com/maps/place/50+Geoffrey+St,+Toronto,+ON https://www.google.com/maps/place/50+Geoffrey+St,+Toronto,+O... * https://www.google.com/maps/place/20+Sparkhall+Ave,+Toronto,+ON https://www.google.com/maps/place/20+Sparkhall+Ave,+Toronto,... IMHO you have a myopic view of what "urban" means. Further, what will your quality of life be like if your municipality/county goes bankrupt: * https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/articles/2020/07/07/by-the-numbers-a-look-at-municipal-bankruptcies-over-the-past-20-years https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/articles/... * https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=60740288 https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=607402... Or if taxes need to be raised over and over to keep things in a state of good repair and other services suffer. A growing portion of your income could end up going to taxes with less left over to discretionary spending because the place you're living in made bad financial decisions.