5 ms·

Another regulatory blunder by the EU. They forced the use of these chemicals.

by macinjosh 4y ago

Glawen 4y ago
I'm pretty sure they didn't force these chemicals, but instead banned CFC and HFC. The industry came up with HFO
- snaptarns22 4y ago
  You prove GP's point. If the EU regulatory experts are so smart they can tell everyone else what to do perhaps they should have mandated a safe chemical. You can't take responsibility for something, enforce changes, and then say you're not responsible for the outcome. They do this all the time, see cookie banners. Governance like this creates problems instead of solving them.
  - DFHippie 4y ago
    > If the EU regulatory experts are so smart they can tell everyone else what to do perhaps they should have mandated a safe chemical. > You can't take responsibility for something, enforce changes, and then say you're not responsible for the outcome. Demonstrating that a particular chemical has particular bad consequences is a lot easier than inventing a replacement. Are you saying regulatory agencies shouldn't exist unless they can replace the industries they regulate?
    - macinjosh 4y ago
      I am saying don’t tell others what to do if you don’t know what you’re talking about.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- SoftTalker 4y ago
  How often do we see the pattern: Industry invents A, which is useful but has bad side effects causing A to get banned. Industry invents B, which does the same thing, maybe not quite as well, and with its own bad side effects, and might be chemically very close to A, but it's technically not A so it can be sold. B gets banned. Repeat.
  - scotty79 4y ago
    Yeah, obviously we should just keep drinking from lead pipes to avoid this exact scenario. /s
darkspirit 4y ago
No. Background on refrigerants: The EU bans water-polluting unnatural refrigerants with a high global warming potential, but water-polluting unnatural refrigerants with low global warming potential (e.g. R1234yf) are unfortunately still permitted for the time being. Refrigerants from split heatpumps (everything that isn't R290/R744: https://danfoss.com/media/ic5drwy5/gwp-graphic-visual-1120x747px.jpg https://danfoss.com/media/ic5drwy5/gwp-graphic-visual-1120x7... ) endanger water. Federal Environmental Agency therefore urgently recommends natural refrigerants (R290=propane (monobloc, A+++), R744=CO2): https://twitter.com/Umweltbundesamt/status/1397461367716724736 https://twitter.com/Umweltbundesamt/status/13974613677167247... Please only buy climate&water-protecting heat pumps with natural refrigerants: Vaillant aroTHERM plus Viessmann Vitocal 151-A,150-A,250-A,252-A =============== Also please don't burn wood, it's even more harmful to people & environment than gas (#StopFakeRenewables): https://twitter.com/Umweltbundesamt/status/1491731154763923457 https://twitter.com/Umweltbundesamt/status/14917311547639234... =============== Use cases of natural refrigerants: - R290 (climate&water-protecting natural refrigerant propane) is perfect for heat pumps and other household devices: https://www.vaillant.co.uk/homeowners/products/the-arotherm-plus-air-to-water-heat-pump-71360.html https://www.vaillant.co.uk/homeowners/products/the-arotherm-... https://live.viessmann.com/en/product-innovations/heat-pump-vitocal.html https://live.viessmann.com/en/product-innovations/heat-pump-... https://www.swegon.com/uk/products/cooling-and-heating/air-cooled-chillers-and-heat-pumps/bluebox-titan-sky-r0/ https://www.swegon.com/uk/products/cooling-and-heating/air-c... https://amazon.de/Royal-Catering-Slush-Eis-Maschine-Arbeitszyklus-LED-Beleuchtung/dp/B07FFRB9CY https://amazon.de/Royal-Catering-Slush-Eis-Maschine-Arbeitsz... - Fridges often have R600a (climate&water-protecting natural refrigerant isobutane). - Carmakers like Volkswagen have switched to R744 (climate&water-protecting natural refrigerant CO2) or intend to.

Another regulatory blunder by the EU. They forced the use of these chemicals.

Glawen 4y ago

I'm pretty sure they didn't force these chemicals, but instead banned CFC and HFC. The industry came up with HFO

snaptarns22 4y ago
You prove GP's point. If the EU regulatory experts are so smart they can tell everyone else what to do perhaps they should have mandated a safe chemical. You can't take responsibility for something, enforce changes, and then say you're not responsible for the outcome. They do this all the time, see cookie banners. Governance like this creates problems instead of solving them.
- DFHippie 4y ago
  > If the EU regulatory experts are so smart they can tell everyone else what to do perhaps they should have mandated a safe chemical. > You can't take responsibility for something, enforce changes, and then say you're not responsible for the outcome. Demonstrating that a particular chemical has particular bad consequences is a lot easier than inventing a replacement. Are you saying regulatory agencies shouldn't exist unless they can replace the industries they regulate?
  - macinjosh 4y ago
    I am saying don’t tell others what to do if you don’t know what you’re talking about.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
SoftTalker 4y ago
How often do we see the pattern: Industry invents A, which is useful but has bad side effects causing A to get banned. Industry invents B, which does the same thing, maybe not quite as well, and with its own bad side effects, and might be chemically very close to A, but it's technically not A so it can be sold. B gets banned. Repeat.
- scotty79 4y ago
  Yeah, obviously we should just keep drinking from lead pipes to avoid this exact scenario. /s

darkspirit 4y ago

No. Background on refrigerants: The EU bans water-polluting unnatural refrigerants with a high global warming potential, but water-polluting unnatural refrigerants with low global warming potential (e.g. R1234yf) are unfortunately still permitted for the time being. Refrigerants from split heatpumps (everything that isn't R290/R744: https://danfoss.com/media/ic5drwy5/gwp-graphic-visual-1120x747px.jpg https://danfoss.com/media/ic5drwy5/gwp-graphic-visual-1120x7... ) endanger water. Federal Environmental Agency therefore urgently recommends natural refrigerants (R290=propane (monobloc, A+++), R744=CO2): https://twitter.com/Umweltbundesamt/status/1397461367716724736 https://twitter.com/Umweltbundesamt/status/13974613677167247... Please only buy climate&water-protecting heat pumps with natural refrigerants: Vaillant aroTHERM plus Viessmann Vitocal 151-A,150-A,250-A,252-A =============== Also please don't burn wood, it's even more harmful to people & environment than gas (#StopFakeRenewables): https://twitter.com/Umweltbundesamt/status/1491731154763923457 https://twitter.com/Umweltbundesamt/status/14917311547639234... =============== Use cases of natural refrigerants: - R290 (climate&water-protecting natural refrigerant propane) is perfect for heat pumps and other household devices: https://www.vaillant.co.uk/homeowners/products/the-arotherm-plus-air-to-water-heat-pump-71360.html https://www.vaillant.co.uk/homeowners/products/the-arotherm-... https://live.viessmann.com/en/product-innovations/heat-pump-vitocal.html https://live.viessmann.com/en/product-innovations/heat-pump-... https://www.swegon.com/uk/products/cooling-and-heating/air-cooled-chillers-and-heat-pumps/bluebox-titan-sky-r0/ https://www.swegon.com/uk/products/cooling-and-heating/air-c... https://amazon.de/Royal-Catering-Slush-Eis-Maschine-Arbeitszyklus-LED-Beleuchtung/dp/B07FFRB9CY https://amazon.de/Royal-Catering-Slush-Eis-Maschine-Arbeitsz... - Fridges often have R600a (climate&water-protecting natural refrigerant isobutane). - Carmakers like Volkswagen have switched to R744 (climate&water-protecting natural refrigerant CO2) or intend to.