4 ms·

I was a student in France and during the two years of high schools I had a bunch of blackboard exams and yeah, you kinda have to learn the material. Of course i

I was a student in France and during the two years of high schools I had a bunch of blackboard exams and yeah, you kinda have to learn the material. Of course it also helps to be confortable in such situations, but we had enough of them to get trained in that

tharkun__ 4y ago
You had enough of them to get trained in that. And it might have taken you just few enough to get comfortable for it not to affect your grades in such a way that you dropped out. I had a friend in university that would just completely fall apart in any kind of such situation, even when it wasn't for an exam and even when it was a group presentation setting and it wasn't just him up there. Written exams were completely fine though. Did he not deserve to get a CS degree and just work in some company where he doesn't have to become a team lead or architect where he'd need to speak and present and instead steadily and happily work in his corner, talk to his immediate peers and crank out solutions?
- ethbr0 4y ago
  I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that presenting to other humans is (a) a skill that most people can learn (to at least "acceptable" levels of proficiency) & (b) a skill that most people should learn, because it's a huge part of working in the field. I understand it's incredibly uncomfortable. I'm a pretty serious introvert and got the shakes and sweat dripping off my hands the first few times I did it. But with exposure and effort to self-improve, it's doable. I didn't like it, but I'm incredibly thankful I was forced to work on it.
  - toyg 4y ago
    Ah yes, the good old fallacy: "I could do it, so it's doable". It's doable by you. That doesn't mean it's doable by someone who is not you, even though they might be otherwise deserving. It's like LeBron James saying "I learned to dunk, so anybody can dunk!" - but basketball is not just about dunking, and not everyone is LeBron.
    - oblio 4y ago
      Talking to other people is not dunking a basketball 3m into the air. Frankly, I've been in oral exams, in Romania they're (were?) part of a national exam at the end of highscool. You just have to practice. If hundreds of thousands of highschoolers in a rather poor country could figure out how to do it (any generally not flunk due to the oral part), for sure university students can do it. Anyone not able to do it will not really be able to pass any interview, persuade peers that their idea is good, etc.
      - toyg 4y ago
        I've been in plenty of oral exams too, in Italy. That doesn't mean I ever enjoyed them or felt they did me justice. > Anyone not able to do it will not really be able to pass any interview, persuade peers that their idea is good, etc. I strongly disagree there. Orals are a situation of complete knowledge and power imbalance between two parties. That is not the case when it comes to persuasion. As for interviews - yeah, they are similar, and that's why interviews also are seen as very problematic. A lot of people who can be perfectly productive in day-to-day situations, simply don't do well in interviews. We should be striving to correct that, not accept it as inevitable.
- baud147258 4y ago
  I think the way those examinations were set up helped a lot in getting confortable (or at least good enough): like it was a weekly event, just three students and the teacher in one room, each student working on its own question(s); the teachers were more or less helpful, but most would guide us along, not leaving us stuck at our blackboard for the whole duration. But if one, even if those situation really can't do it, they'd have to switch to a course/class without any oral examination to get their degrees, but I think it's way better to learn as a student than as a professional (and yes, like the sibling comment, I think most people _can_ learn to an acceptable degree) > work in his corner, talk to his immediate peers and crank out solutions Do such post really exists?
  - tharkun__ 4y ago
    I think you should quote more of that sentence and then I can say that yes, definitely these do exist: where he doesn't have to become a team lead or architect where he'd need to speak and present and instead steadily and happily work in his corner, talk to his immediate peers and crank out solutions? Yes, companies exist, which do not push you out just because you have found your sweet spot of what you can do and are OK with. Of course we're not talking FAANG here and in general I would assume that HN clientele is skewed towards working in companies where this is not possible. However, I can tell you that I've worked at companies personally way back in the past in which I met many such employees that had been in those companies for quite some time. The big thing here being "talk to his immediate peers". The guy I was describing was completely fine working w/ us, his friends. Put him in front of an audience and he's got a problem. Of course it'd be hard to get a job in the first place, but a lot of places also did exist at least back then where no coding (neither take home, nor whiteboard) were part of the hiring process. Of course you won't make that guy a consultant at Accenture, he's gonna fall apart.
    - baud147258 4y ago
      > I think you should quote more of that sentence well, that would have made the requisites for the posts harder to meet :)
- Dudeman112 4y ago
  There's only so many issues someone can have until people in general will decide to give them a "fuck off, I don't care" treatment. You don't have that for verbal communication with other people, but I'm sure if digged far enough you would have the same reaction to something else that other people think is acceptable. Just how accommodating should the standard test be? If the answer is "infinitely", I think you won't find any test that satisfies it

tharkun__ 4y ago

You had enough of them to get trained in that. And it might have taken you just few enough to get comfortable for it not to affect your grades in such a way that you dropped out. I had a friend in university that would just completely fall apart in any kind of such situation, even when it wasn't for an exam and even when it was a group presentation setting and it wasn't just him up there. Written exams were completely fine though. Did he not deserve to get a CS degree and just work in some company where he doesn't have to become a team lead or architect where he'd need to speak and present and instead steadily and happily work in his corner, talk to his immediate peers and crank out solutions?

ethbr0 4y ago
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that presenting to other humans is (a) a skill that most people can learn (to at least "acceptable" levels of proficiency) & (b) a skill that most people should learn, because it's a huge part of working in the field. I understand it's incredibly uncomfortable. I'm a pretty serious introvert and got the shakes and sweat dripping off my hands the first few times I did it. But with exposure and effort to self-improve, it's doable. I didn't like it, but I'm incredibly thankful I was forced to work on it.
- toyg 4y ago
  Ah yes, the good old fallacy: "I could do it, so it's doable". It's doable by you. That doesn't mean it's doable by someone who is not you, even though they might be otherwise deserving. It's like LeBron James saying "I learned to dunk, so anybody can dunk!" - but basketball is not just about dunking, and not everyone is LeBron.
  - oblio 4y ago
    Talking to other people is not dunking a basketball 3m into the air. Frankly, I've been in oral exams, in Romania they're (were?) part of a national exam at the end of highscool. You just have to practice. If hundreds of thousands of highschoolers in a rather poor country could figure out how to do it (any generally not flunk due to the oral part), for sure university students can do it. Anyone not able to do it will not really be able to pass any interview, persuade peers that their idea is good, etc.
    - toyg 4y ago
      I've been in plenty of oral exams too, in Italy. That doesn't mean I ever enjoyed them or felt they did me justice. > Anyone not able to do it will not really be able to pass any interview, persuade peers that their idea is good, etc. I strongly disagree there. Orals are a situation of complete knowledge and power imbalance between two parties. That is not the case when it comes to persuasion. As for interviews - yeah, they are similar, and that's why interviews also are seen as very problematic. A lot of people who can be perfectly productive in day-to-day situations, simply don't do well in interviews. We should be striving to correct that, not accept it as inevitable.
baud147258 4y ago
I think the way those examinations were set up helped a lot in getting confortable (or at least good enough): like it was a weekly event, just three students and the teacher in one room, each student working on its own question(s); the teachers were more or less helpful, but most would guide us along, not leaving us stuck at our blackboard for the whole duration. But if one, even if those situation really can't do it, they'd have to switch to a course/class without any oral examination to get their degrees, but I think it's way better to learn as a student than as a professional (and yes, like the sibling comment, I think most people _can_ learn to an acceptable degree) > work in his corner, talk to his immediate peers and crank out solutions Do such post really exists?
- tharkun__ 4y ago
  I think you should quote more of that sentence and then I can say that yes, definitely these do exist: where he doesn't have to become a team lead or architect where he'd need to speak and present and instead steadily and happily work in his corner, talk to his immediate peers and crank out solutions? Yes, companies exist, which do not push you out just because you have found your sweet spot of what you can do and are OK with. Of course we're not talking FAANG here and in general I would assume that HN clientele is skewed towards working in companies where this is not possible. However, I can tell you that I've worked at companies personally way back in the past in which I met many such employees that had been in those companies for quite some time. The big thing here being "talk to his immediate peers". The guy I was describing was completely fine working w/ us, his friends. Put him in front of an audience and he's got a problem. Of course it'd be hard to get a job in the first place, but a lot of places also did exist at least back then where no coding (neither take home, nor whiteboard) were part of the hiring process. Of course you won't make that guy a consultant at Accenture, he's gonna fall apart.
  - baud147258 4y ago
    > I think you should quote more of that sentence well, that would have made the requisites for the posts harder to meet :)
Dudeman112 4y ago
There's only so many issues someone can have until people in general will decide to give them a "fuck off, I don't care" treatment. You don't have that for verbal communication with other people, but I'm sure if digged far enough you would have the same reaction to something else that other people think is acceptable. Just how accommodating should the standard test be? If the answer is "infinitely", I think you won't find any test that satisfies it