5 ms·

Designers, like Ive, should not be left unchecked. As part of an overall team they have value, but they should never be given carte-blanche as Ive had.

by Jemm 4y ago

JKCalhoun 4y ago
I was surprised to find myself agreeing with the point of view ascribed to Ive. My takeaway though is that the device itself and how it should look/work is not obvious, and that is a bad thing. For a device like the iPhone, iPod a few people kicking around ideas over sushi could very quickly (and with wild enthusiasm, no doubt) come to agree on the basic form, basic functionality. If our VR-future has to be shoe-horned into existence, maybe it was not to be. If anything, I want to see "the cyber" go away, not become more pervasive.
jitl 4y ago
On the other hand, no one has released a VR system with mass market appeal. I have and enjoy a Valve Index, but it’s stayed in the box for more than a year because I can’t figure out a socially viable spot for it in my new house. Maybe Ive’s influence on this product will make a big difference.
- puranjay 4y ago
  VR seems to have an insurmountable motion sickness problem. I tried the Quest with a dozen friends and half of them felt sick enough within minutes to never try it again.
  - _jaej 4y ago
    You just need to start with the basics, take a break the moment you feel ill, and keep going. Within a few weeks most people are entirely used to it.
    - kalleboo 4y ago
      That may be, but you're going to need an extremely compelling use case for people to go through with that.
    - puranjay 4y ago
      But…why? Why would you persist with something that makes you sick even when the enthusiasts admit they use it once or twice a month?
      - andybak 4y ago
        Not sure who you’re speaking to but I use it several times a week.
      - DonHopkins 4y ago
        Puking doesn't stop some people from drinking!
        krrrh 4y ago
        Unlike drinking, using a VR set won’t help you get laid.
      - pharke 4y ago
        Sorry, those people aren't enthusiasts. There are people that spend 8 hours a day in VR. Hell, there are a lot of people that fall asleep in VR.
        Deritiod 4y ago
        Huh? I only know one person who used bis VR set extensively like for 2-3 month and then falled back to play egoshooters. 'a lot of people' != Not market relevant
        pharke 4y ago
        That's cool but try jumping in to Pavlov or VRChat on a Friday night and then tell me there isn't a thriving community. It's not mainstream but it definitely isn't dead.
        Deritiod 4y ago
        And how many active people can you find there in comparison to all apple iphone owner?
  - imglorp 4y ago
    This might be especially true if they're prioritizing aesthetic concerns over performance: per OP, they axed the compute-heavy base station. Carmak talks about increasing frame rate and increasing depth calculation as mitigators against sickness. BTW I feel sick merely playing Quake 1 at arm's length from a small monitor. https://www.techradar.com/news/oculus-might-have-a-fix-to-end-vr-motion-sickness-for-good https://www.techradar.com/news/oculus-might-have-a-fix-to-en... https://www.lifewire.com/how-new-tech-could-prevent-vr-motion-sickness-5181084 https://www.lifewire.com/how-new-tech-could-prevent-vr-motio...
  - _flux 4y ago
    May I ask, what kind of experiences did they try on the device? It seems well-accepted hypothesis that having artificial locomotion in VR can induce motion sickness (cases where the VR body moves but your own body doesn't), whereas with "sit", "stay still" or "walk around IRL" (and even "teleport around") scenarios are highly unlikely to cause it. There is a still a lot of experiences left in the latter scenario, though it does exclude driving games (in particular if you don't see the cockpit) or first-person shooting-and-moving-around games. And then the worst thing to do with newcomers is to put them down for a ride in a VR rollercoaster.
  - pharke 4y ago
    It's only insurmountable if you never try it again. There is a learning curve where some people feal quite sick at first and then slowly get used to it. You can mitigate this with "training wheels" settings in the experience like blinkers, cages, hiding the VR body, and alternate locomotion schemes like teleporting. Some people even swear by just setting up a fan to blow air on them while they're using VR.
  - zmmmmm 4y ago
    I'm a bit sceptical of this comment. I've probably shown mine to ~30 people and not a single one had motion sickness with any of the "safe" experiences, assuming the device is adjusted properly (IPD). If you stick them on a roller-coaster or a super laggy app as their first experience then yeah that's going to be a problem. But for safe experiences - I think there is a percentage of people who experience disorientation or nausea but it's certainly not half (maybe 10% or so).
    - redisman 4y ago
      I got nauseous after a few hours of Half Life Alyx. Until then my test was going smoothly. I would imagine most games where you can move freely would be fairly bad for me. I even took a Dramamine to try to play some more which worked but wasn’t something I’d want to do often
      - zmmmmm 4y ago
        Half-life Alyx is pretty bad actually. Even I as a veteran get a tiny bit queasy with that occasionally - definitely wouldn't class it as one of my "safe" experiences. But even then "after a few hours" is pretty long really. Most people wouldn't stay in VR that long anyway. Native Quest games are the best as they are entirely on-device with no latency anywhere.
- lostgame 4y ago
  >> On the other hand, no one has released a VR system with mass market appeal. Quest 2 would like a word with you?
  - dreamcompiler 4y ago
    I have both Quest models. They were fun for about a week and now they just collect dust. I've forgotten I own them. Part of my problem with Quest is the "ick" factor of knowing that FB is looking over my shoulder whenever I turn the thing on. Giving up your privacy seems to be the price of just about every cool technology nowadays, and it means the tech has to be absolutely spectacular to make me pay that privacy price. My Tesla is sufficiently spectacular. Quest is not.
  - jitl 4y ago
    Quest 2 has impressive sales figures – 8 million in 2021, which is a quarter of Apple Watch at 32 million the same year. But the market for Quest 2 is very much games – I don't see much application outside that area, nor have I heard of break-through must-have or games.
- bnolsen 4y ago
  The Oculus quest 2 definitely has fit that bill. It has game console level sales. How truly useful and confirtable it is may be questionable, but it certainly supports a market.
  - ceeplusplus 4y ago
    But not game console level software sales. Xbox has 1) recurring revenue from online subscriptions 2) recurring GamePass revenue 3) a huge library of games and gamers who tend to buy many games often. Average software spend for Quest 2 is estimated at $125/user [1], which is a mere 2 games without DLC on Xbox. By contrast I'd be willing to bet software revenue/user for Xbox is well in the hundreds. [1] https://arinsider.co/2021/08/02/how-many-quest-2s-sold-in-q2/ https://arinsider.co/2021/08/02/how-many-quest-2s-sold-in-q2...
    - Auracle 4y ago
      Quest games are also fairly cheap compared to console games as a whole, so they might be somewhat equivalent in overall software purchased. Also, a lot of people are still hopping on the Quest/VR train so I would expect that number to go up.
  - astrange 4y ago
    Are the users actually using it? Nerd dads are famous for buying anything that might run an NES emulator, then not using it after it turns out their kids have better things to do than listen to square waves.
  - Deritiod 4y ago
    I bought an HTC vive pro + wireless + index Ctrl. I did that to play around as I was playing with 3d programming and I'm a nerd. And while friends and family know that and a few tried it out for a little bit and liked it, no one cares. Which is fine but it is a gimmick. I was hoping it would get more traction with real life training like how to use a lathe but nothing really came out or is in some internal companies.
na85 4y ago
Indeed, it's clear that Ive hasn't been a positive force on Apple's products for a while. His pathological fetish for thinness at all costs resulted in objectively inferior products. Apple can and does make mistakes, for example the touch bar, and the MacBook keyboard. If Ive is involved I predict that this product will experience a brief but intense surge in popularity based primarily on the novelty factor and social media influencers followed by a rapid decline into irrelevance.

Designers, like Ive, should not be left unchecked. As part of an overall team they have value, but they should never be given carte-blanche as Ive had.

by Jemm 4y ago

Designers, like Ive, should not be left unchecked. As part of an overall team they have value, but they should never be given carte-blanche as Ive had.

JKCalhoun 4y ago

I was surprised to find myself agreeing with the point of view ascribed to Ive. My takeaway though is that the device itself and how it should look/work is not obvious, and that is a bad thing. For a device like the iPhone, iPod a few people kicking around ideas over sushi could very quickly (and with wild enthusiasm, no doubt) come to agree on the basic form, basic functionality. If our VR-future has to be shoe-horned into existence, maybe it was not to be. If anything, I want to see "the cyber" go away, not become more pervasive.

jitl 4y ago

On the other hand, no one has released a VR system with mass market appeal. I have and enjoy a Valve Index, but it’s stayed in the box for more than a year because I can’t figure out a socially viable spot for it in my new house. Maybe Ive’s influence on this product will make a big difference.

puranjay 4y ago
VR seems to have an insurmountable motion sickness problem. I tried the Quest with a dozen friends and half of them felt sick enough within minutes to never try it again.
- _jaej 4y ago
  You just need to start with the basics, take a break the moment you feel ill, and keep going. Within a few weeks most people are entirely used to it.
  - kalleboo 4y ago
    That may be, but you're going to need an extremely compelling use case for people to go through with that.
  - puranjay 4y ago
    But…why? Why would you persist with something that makes you sick even when the enthusiasts admit they use it once or twice a month?
    - andybak 4y ago
      Not sure who you’re speaking to but I use it several times a week.
    - DonHopkins 4y ago
      Puking doesn't stop some people from drinking!
      - krrrh 4y ago
        Unlike drinking, using a VR set won’t help you get laid.
    - pharke 4y ago
      Sorry, those people aren't enthusiasts. There are people that spend 8 hours a day in VR. Hell, there are a lot of people that fall asleep in VR.
      - Deritiod 4y ago
        Huh? I only know one person who used bis VR set extensively like for 2-3 month and then falled back to play egoshooters. 'a lot of people' != Not market relevant
        pharke 4y ago
        That's cool but try jumping in to Pavlov or VRChat on a Friday night and then tell me there isn't a thriving community. It's not mainstream but it definitely isn't dead.
        Deritiod 4y ago
        And how many active people can you find there in comparison to all apple iphone owner?
- imglorp 4y ago
  This might be especially true if they're prioritizing aesthetic concerns over performance: per OP, they axed the compute-heavy base station. Carmak talks about increasing frame rate and increasing depth calculation as mitigators against sickness. BTW I feel sick merely playing Quake 1 at arm's length from a small monitor. https://www.techradar.com/news/oculus-might-have-a-fix-to-end-vr-motion-sickness-for-good https://www.techradar.com/news/oculus-might-have-a-fix-to-en... https://www.lifewire.com/how-new-tech-could-prevent-vr-motion-sickness-5181084 https://www.lifewire.com/how-new-tech-could-prevent-vr-motio...
- _flux 4y ago
  May I ask, what kind of experiences did they try on the device? It seems well-accepted hypothesis that having artificial locomotion in VR can induce motion sickness (cases where the VR body moves but your own body doesn't), whereas with "sit", "stay still" or "walk around IRL" (and even "teleport around") scenarios are highly unlikely to cause it. There is a still a lot of experiences left in the latter scenario, though it does exclude driving games (in particular if you don't see the cockpit) or first-person shooting-and-moving-around games. And then the worst thing to do with newcomers is to put them down for a ride in a VR rollercoaster.
- pharke 4y ago
  It's only insurmountable if you never try it again. There is a learning curve where some people feal quite sick at first and then slowly get used to it. You can mitigate this with "training wheels" settings in the experience like blinkers, cages, hiding the VR body, and alternate locomotion schemes like teleporting. Some people even swear by just setting up a fan to blow air on them while they're using VR.
- zmmmmm 4y ago
  I'm a bit sceptical of this comment. I've probably shown mine to ~30 people and not a single one had motion sickness with any of the "safe" experiences, assuming the device is adjusted properly (IPD). If you stick them on a roller-coaster or a super laggy app as their first experience then yeah that's going to be a problem. But for safe experiences - I think there is a percentage of people who experience disorientation or nausea but it's certainly not half (maybe 10% or so).
  - redisman 4y ago
    I got nauseous after a few hours of Half Life Alyx. Until then my test was going smoothly. I would imagine most games where you can move freely would be fairly bad for me. I even took a Dramamine to try to play some more which worked but wasn’t something I’d want to do often
    - zmmmmm 4y ago
      Half-life Alyx is pretty bad actually. Even I as a veteran get a tiny bit queasy with that occasionally - definitely wouldn't class it as one of my "safe" experiences. But even then "after a few hours" is pretty long really. Most people wouldn't stay in VR that long anyway. Native Quest games are the best as they are entirely on-device with no latency anywhere.
lostgame 4y ago
>> On the other hand, no one has released a VR system with mass market appeal. Quest 2 would like a word with you?
- dreamcompiler 4y ago
  I have both Quest models. They were fun for about a week and now they just collect dust. I've forgotten I own them. Part of my problem with Quest is the "ick" factor of knowing that FB is looking over my shoulder whenever I turn the thing on. Giving up your privacy seems to be the price of just about every cool technology nowadays, and it means the tech has to be absolutely spectacular to make me pay that privacy price. My Tesla is sufficiently spectacular. Quest is not.
- jitl 4y ago
  Quest 2 has impressive sales figures – 8 million in 2021, which is a quarter of Apple Watch at 32 million the same year. But the market for Quest 2 is very much games – I don't see much application outside that area, nor have I heard of break-through must-have or games.
bnolsen 4y ago
The Oculus quest 2 definitely has fit that bill. It has game console level sales. How truly useful and confirtable it is may be questionable, but it certainly supports a market.
- ceeplusplus 4y ago
  But not game console level software sales. Xbox has 1) recurring revenue from online subscriptions 2) recurring GamePass revenue 3) a huge library of games and gamers who tend to buy many games often. Average software spend for Quest 2 is estimated at $125/user [1], which is a mere 2 games without DLC on Xbox. By contrast I'd be willing to bet software revenue/user for Xbox is well in the hundreds. [1] https://arinsider.co/2021/08/02/how-many-quest-2s-sold-in-q2/ https://arinsider.co/2021/08/02/how-many-quest-2s-sold-in-q2...
  - Auracle 4y ago
    Quest games are also fairly cheap compared to console games as a whole, so they might be somewhat equivalent in overall software purchased. Also, a lot of people are still hopping on the Quest/VR train so I would expect that number to go up.
- astrange 4y ago
  Are the users actually using it? Nerd dads are famous for buying anything that might run an NES emulator, then not using it after it turns out their kids have better things to do than listen to square waves.
- Deritiod 4y ago
  I bought an HTC vive pro + wireless + index Ctrl. I did that to play around as I was playing with 3d programming and I'm a nerd. And while friends and family know that and a few tried it out for a little bit and liked it, no one cares. Which is fine but it is a gimmick. I was hoping it would get more traction with real life training like how to use a lathe but nothing really came out or is in some internal companies.

na85 4y ago

Indeed, it's clear that Ive hasn't been a positive force on Apple's products for a while. His pathological fetish for thinness at all costs resulted in objectively inferior products. Apple can and does make mistakes, for example the touch bar, and the MacBook keyboard. If Ive is involved I predict that this product will experience a brief but intense surge in popularity based primarily on the novelty factor and social media influencers followed by a rapid decline into irrelevance.