5 ms·

> That appears to be about 650 miles (1050km). That’s around the point where many people will still prefer to fly. Not sure that is true. When you have a high

by buro9 4y ago

> That appears to be about 650 miles (1050km). That’s around the point where many people will still prefer to fly. Not sure that is true. When you have a high speed train, going from the centre of a city to the centre of another city... and can subtract time to get to airport, time in airport security, time to wait to board a plane, time to taxi, time to circle before landing, time to get to the city, time to safety margin most of the above... the train comes out at least comparable on time (not an order of magnitude off), cheaper, greener, and centre-to-centre. For me... European trains are so nice in comparison to flying that unless there is a time penalty of more than double to triple the real time spent flying (which in this case does not feel true)... then the train wins. It's also a very productive journey. I can't do meetings on a train, but 6-7 hours uninterrupted in a comfy chair with power and internet is still coding / making slides / etc.

AdrianB1 4y ago
Not everyone can work in a train because not every job is suitable for that. If all you want is to get from point A to point B and you are not paid for that, the extra time is a burden. Another con is this scenario: you need to go from Berlin to Paris for an activity that takes 2-3 hours (ex: paperwork that requires your presence on site or a very important meeting). With a plane you fly in, do the thing and fly out same day. With the train, you spend 2 days. I had to do this a lot 20 years ago between Bucharest, Romania, and Sofia, Bulgaria; about 370km, no highway, inconvenient flight times, train took ~ 6 hours each direction etc. I was driving there and back, 4 hours door to door each direction, the gas was a lot cheaper than the hotel and sometimes traveling 2-5 people in a car. Double the distance and the plane is the attractive option vs train.
- eesmith 4y ago
  To give some more concrete numbers, I estimated the time from Google's office in Berlin (Tucholskystraße 2, 10117 Berlin, Germany) to Google's office in Paris (8 Rue de Londres, 75009 Paris, France). Option 1 (plane + taxi) - taxi to BER (45m), check-in/security/wait (1h), BER-CDG flight 1h45m, exit (20m), taxi to the Paris office (1h) = about 5 hours. Option 2 (plane + bus) - bus in Berlin takes 50 minutes, in Paris takes 1 hour, so about the same, but I'll add about 30 minutes because the schedules might not mesh so well = about 5.5 hours. Option 2 (train) - taxi to Berlin Hbf (6m) or walk (25m), train to Gare de l'Est (7 hours), taxi (13m) or walk (28m) to the Paris office = about 7.5 hours. Agreed, 5 extra hours makes a same-day visit tougher (10 hours of travel vs 15). Plus, to start there's only one day-time direct train route, while there are more flight options.
  - Symbiote 4y ago
    You're much more likely to be able to do useful work on the uninterrupted 7 hour train journey, compared to all the 1-hour bits of the plane journey. There will presumably be free Wi-Fi and power sockets. You'll be interrupted once to show your ticket, that's all.
    - eesmith 4y ago
      I agree with AdrianB1 that I can think of cases where someone will want to do same-day Berlin->Paris->Berlin trip. The ~5 hour total time savings by flight vs. train (assuming a frequent enough service) might be worth being less productive while on the trip. If I really need to be present at this "very important" 3 hour meeting in Paris then the best option might be to rent a meeting room at CDG. Then it's a 2 hour flight, 3 hour meeting, and 2 hour flight home - plus transit time in Berlin and going through security at CDG so call it another 3 hours = 10 hours total. While it's a minimum of 17 hours by train.
    - majewsky 4y ago
      Nitpick, on such a long train ride, you will usually have multiple ticket checks because the crew will have a shift change inbetween. Train staff, unlike airplane staff, usually return home after every shift. After having been on the train for 3 hours or so, they will get off, have their break, then go back on the same line to their home base.
  - AdrianB1 4y ago
    I agree there are good use cases. At the same time I notice you have an amazing saving on connections (from 1h 45 min to airport to 19 minutes, saving 1 h 22 minutes) that is not there for most people. I consider Berlin-Paris customers to be people "around Berlin area" and "towards Paris area", that would negate the connection part. To be very transparent: I dislike commercial planes. I worked several years in a large airport and I hate the airport experience (cannot disclose any details, but it is very ineffective); I hate the seats in the plane because I am tall and leg room is inadequate. I dislike sitting uncomfortably for hours and I dislike the sound pollution. At the same time I am a sport pilot and I am flying less and less, mostly because the seat (even more uncomfortable) and noise. But I am trying to be realistic when choosing train versus plane, beyond some distance the plane is much better.
throw93232 4y ago
I prefer to fly, even if it takes slightly longer. Trains in EU are usually more expensive. Central railway stations are occupied by criminals and homeless. I would not dare to use toilets there.
- lucb1e 4y ago
  I take it you either haven't been to many central railway stations, or were pickpocketed on one of your first times through and now feel (understandably) unsafe there? Also not sure what you mean about the toilets, you think they're lying in wait there or do you mean 'dare' from a hygiene standpoint?
  - mathverse 4y ago
    I totally get OP's comment. Cleanliness and safety of the station is usually proportional to its city's GDP. IE main central station in Vienna is fine. The one in Dresden not so much. This is very different when it comes to airports as even small tier 2 airports are somehow clean and safe due to tightened security of them being airports and not train stations.
    - lucb1e 4y ago
      That airports are more secure is not hard to believe, as they're not actually in cities so criminals would have to plan ahead and travel there to start whatever undefined criminal activity we're talking about. I doubt it's the security theater that does it, as they are just for getting onto planes (I haven't seen security people outside of that security area). It's not like I've never seen a homeless person in a city center (which includes train stations, though usually they're not inside) but I'm not sure that crime rates are actually that high. With cameras all over the place, it sounds like it would be a hard place to operate at more than a handful of times until they know what you look like, but IANAC.
    - majewsky 4y ago
      > The one in Dresden not so much. I live in Dresden. Could you elaborate on what you find unclean or unsafe about Dresden Hbf? I travel from there quite often, and don't recall any experiences that would make me feel unsafe or uncomfortable like you seem to allude to. If anything, the one thing I notice is that there is the high density of police patrols, since the border police for trains going to Czechia and Poland operate out of Dresden Hbf.
dr_dshiv 4y ago
It’s very frustrating that you can’t even get reliable phone service (let alone internet) along major train routes (eg, Amsterdam to Berlin). Trains need to provide consistent connectivity and then they can be mobile offices. Maybe add some rentable phone booths, too.
- Tijdreiziger 4y ago
  Well, you’re talking about probably the worst EU country for mobile service here (Germany).
- sofixa 4y ago
  Depends on the route - I've never not had reliable phone service and internet on the TGV or Thalys networks ( i used to work on the Paris - Amsterdam train occasionally and it was completely usable).
johnwalkr 4y ago
It’s also often more flexible. I’m right now sitting in a major European city Centre eating lunch because I was running a bit late to take my train and it was less stressful to just take the next one 90 minutes later. To some extent you can do that with flights in major cities, but you’d have to have the correct (not cheapest) ticket and make the decision a few hours in advance. In Japan it’s even nicer, as the next train is probably in 15 minutes.
Ayesh 4y ago
Plus you can take a reasonably sized luggage without paying extra.
ant6n 4y ago
I once saw a presentation on marseille frankfurt TGV. there are few ppl doing the trip end to end, it becomes economical due to all the other trips (n stops means n² possible trips).
kall 4y ago
You can also just hop on, without any planning, in Germany anyway, and the price will only be expensive, not outrageous. An ICE is no different than a bus in this regard. A flight is a totally different story, probably planned weeks in advance and stress starts on the morning the day of.

by buro9 4y ago

AdrianB1 4y ago

Not everyone can work in a train because not every job is suitable for that. If all you want is to get from point A to point B and you are not paid for that, the extra time is a burden. Another con is this scenario: you need to go from Berlin to Paris for an activity that takes 2-3 hours (ex: paperwork that requires your presence on site or a very important meeting). With a plane you fly in, do the thing and fly out same day. With the train, you spend 2 days. I had to do this a lot 20 years ago between Bucharest, Romania, and Sofia, Bulgaria; about 370km, no highway, inconvenient flight times, train took ~ 6 hours each direction etc. I was driving there and back, 4 hours door to door each direction, the gas was a lot cheaper than the hotel and sometimes traveling 2-5 people in a car. Double the distance and the plane is the attractive option vs train.

eesmith 4y ago
To give some more concrete numbers, I estimated the time from Google's office in Berlin (Tucholskystraße 2, 10117 Berlin, Germany) to Google's office in Paris (8 Rue de Londres, 75009 Paris, France). Option 1 (plane + taxi) - taxi to BER (45m), check-in/security/wait (1h), BER-CDG flight 1h45m, exit (20m), taxi to the Paris office (1h) = about 5 hours. Option 2 (plane + bus) - bus in Berlin takes 50 minutes, in Paris takes 1 hour, so about the same, but I'll add about 30 minutes because the schedules might not mesh so well = about 5.5 hours. Option 2 (train) - taxi to Berlin Hbf (6m) or walk (25m), train to Gare de l'Est (7 hours), taxi (13m) or walk (28m) to the Paris office = about 7.5 hours. Agreed, 5 extra hours makes a same-day visit tougher (10 hours of travel vs 15). Plus, to start there's only one day-time direct train route, while there are more flight options.
- Symbiote 4y ago
  You're much more likely to be able to do useful work on the uninterrupted 7 hour train journey, compared to all the 1-hour bits of the plane journey. There will presumably be free Wi-Fi and power sockets. You'll be interrupted once to show your ticket, that's all.
  - eesmith 4y ago
    I agree with AdrianB1 that I can think of cases where someone will want to do same-day Berlin->Paris->Berlin trip. The ~5 hour total time savings by flight vs. train (assuming a frequent enough service) might be worth being less productive while on the trip. If I really need to be present at this "very important" 3 hour meeting in Paris then the best option might be to rent a meeting room at CDG. Then it's a 2 hour flight, 3 hour meeting, and 2 hour flight home - plus transit time in Berlin and going through security at CDG so call it another 3 hours = 10 hours total. While it's a minimum of 17 hours by train.
  - majewsky 4y ago
    Nitpick, on such a long train ride, you will usually have multiple ticket checks because the crew will have a shift change inbetween. Train staff, unlike airplane staff, usually return home after every shift. After having been on the train for 3 hours or so, they will get off, have their break, then go back on the same line to their home base.
- AdrianB1 4y ago
  I agree there are good use cases. At the same time I notice you have an amazing saving on connections (from 1h 45 min to airport to 19 minutes, saving 1 h 22 minutes) that is not there for most people. I consider Berlin-Paris customers to be people "around Berlin area" and "towards Paris area", that would negate the connection part. To be very transparent: I dislike commercial planes. I worked several years in a large airport and I hate the airport experience (cannot disclose any details, but it is very ineffective); I hate the seats in the plane because I am tall and leg room is inadequate. I dislike sitting uncomfortably for hours and I dislike the sound pollution. At the same time I am a sport pilot and I am flying less and less, mostly because the seat (even more uncomfortable) and noise. But I am trying to be realistic when choosing train versus plane, beyond some distance the plane is much better.

throw93232 4y ago

I prefer to fly, even if it takes slightly longer. Trains in EU are usually more expensive. Central railway stations are occupied by criminals and homeless. I would not dare to use toilets there.

lucb1e 4y ago
I take it you either haven't been to many central railway stations, or were pickpocketed on one of your first times through and now feel (understandably) unsafe there? Also not sure what you mean about the toilets, you think they're lying in wait there or do you mean 'dare' from a hygiene standpoint?
- mathverse 4y ago
  I totally get OP's comment. Cleanliness and safety of the station is usually proportional to its city's GDP. IE main central station in Vienna is fine. The one in Dresden not so much. This is very different when it comes to airports as even small tier 2 airports are somehow clean and safe due to tightened security of them being airports and not train stations.
  - lucb1e 4y ago
    That airports are more secure is not hard to believe, as they're not actually in cities so criminals would have to plan ahead and travel there to start whatever undefined criminal activity we're talking about. I doubt it's the security theater that does it, as they are just for getting onto planes (I haven't seen security people outside of that security area). It's not like I've never seen a homeless person in a city center (which includes train stations, though usually they're not inside) but I'm not sure that crime rates are actually that high. With cameras all over the place, it sounds like it would be a hard place to operate at more than a handful of times until they know what you look like, but IANAC.
  - majewsky 4y ago
    > The one in Dresden not so much. I live in Dresden. Could you elaborate on what you find unclean or unsafe about Dresden Hbf? I travel from there quite often, and don't recall any experiences that would make me feel unsafe or uncomfortable like you seem to allude to. If anything, the one thing I notice is that there is the high density of police patrols, since the border police for trains going to Czechia and Poland operate out of Dresden Hbf.

dr_dshiv 4y ago

It’s very frustrating that you can’t even get reliable phone service (let alone internet) along major train routes (eg, Amsterdam to Berlin). Trains need to provide consistent connectivity and then they can be mobile offices. Maybe add some rentable phone booths, too.

Tijdreiziger 4y ago
Well, you’re talking about probably the worst EU country for mobile service here (Germany).
sofixa 4y ago
Depends on the route - I've never not had reliable phone service and internet on the TGV or Thalys networks ( i used to work on the Paris - Amsterdam train occasionally and it was completely usable).

johnwalkr 4y ago

It’s also often more flexible. I’m right now sitting in a major European city Centre eating lunch because I was running a bit late to take my train and it was less stressful to just take the next one 90 minutes later. To some extent you can do that with flights in major cities, but you’d have to have the correct (not cheapest) ticket and make the decision a few hours in advance. In Japan it’s even nicer, as the next train is probably in 15 minutes.

Ayesh 4y ago

Plus you can take a reasonably sized luggage without paying extra.

ant6n 4y ago

I once saw a presentation on marseille frankfurt TGV. there are few ppl doing the trip end to end, it becomes economical due to all the other trips (n stops means n² possible trips).

kall 4y ago

You can also just hop on, without any planning, in Germany anyway, and the price will only be expensive, not outrageous. An ICE is no different than a bus in this regard. A flight is a totally different story, probably planned weeks in advance and stress starts on the morning the day of.