4 ms·

The reason I think a lot of people cheat is because they just don't appreciate the value of a good education, they don't even know what they really want to do w

The reason I think a lot of people cheat is because they just don't appreciate the value of a good education, they don't even know what they really want to do with their lives, they don't know the value of money, and are just going because their parents just want them to. I went through an unconventional learning path - I didn't think I was ready for post-secondary straight out of highschool, so I worked first. After I felt I was ready, I went. Everyone told me I was crazy and I needed to go straight to post secondary, but as a result I was able to figure out what I wanted to do, and gain some discipline and perspective while I was at it. I did well in post-secondary school, far better than I ever could have dreamed of in highschool. At College I couldn't believe the number of people straight out of highschool who slacked off and wasted their parents' money. I was involved in a student drive and I got to see it even more firsthand. Asking students about why they were interested - "my parents want me to go". "I don't know". Those were the most common answers. People mature at different rates, and expecting everyone to be ready for College right as they enter adulthood is madness. Some people need some life experience, some people will never gain those skills and should take alternate life paths. To be clear, taking an alternate life path can be risky, and the one I took is not the one for everyone. I think we just need to take a critical look at what we're asking of late teenagers and young adults.

paulpauper 4y ago
, they don't know the value of money, and are just going because their parents just want them to. how does this follow from not cheating. if you care about not wasting money, you would do everything, including even cheating, to pass. they don't even know what they really want to do with their lives or maybe they do know and just see 4 years of college as a waste of time to get there.
- barsonme 4y ago
  Because most of the cheating is born out of laziness, not from a desire to pass at all costs.
  - paulpauper 4y ago
    "all cost" not include cheating as well?
- rbongers 4y ago
  >if you care about not wasting money, you would do everything, including even cheating, to pass. If you care about not wasting money, why risk everything you've spent and not even gain the education that you've purchased while you're at it? >or maybe they do know and just see 4 years of college as a waste of time to get there. If they truly already have the skills they need to skip to their life of choice - why cheat? If they don't have this capability, their feeling that they should just be able to skip over education is wrong.
bumby 4y ago
To your point, college is a path to education for some and a signal for others (and, probably more accurately, some mixture of both). I think the issue is when both groups (those that cheat and those that do not) both get the same credential. That means the credential has lost its "signal value". To someone who values college as almost exclusively for its educational value, maybe that doesn't matter. But to many, especially HR, the degree is valuable for its signaling capability and watering that down has real and lasting consequences.
eek2121 4y ago
My dude, I make a quarter million a year. I found out how useless college was after I accrued $2,944 in student loans (I attended college after 2001). The value to me was, and continues to be zero. College is not for everyone, and this applies even in countries where higher education is free. The ability to use critical thinking does not come from a college education.
- guggleet 4y ago
  many make that because of massive information asymmetry. they are players in a giant con game that is engulfing the world. to some, there is more to life than bartering.
- paulpauper 4y ago
  how many employers req. 'critical thinking' instead of a degree.
  - linksnapzz 4y ago
    Far too few. Were it possible; employers might screen candidates on the results of a test of critical thinking, as opposed to a degree. However, this has been illegal since Griggs vs. Duke.
    - t-3 4y ago
      Well, some places do leetcode... and then they ask if you have a degree.
    - bumby 4y ago
      Wasn't the intent of Griggs v. Duke that the testing needed to apropos to the job? Meaning that "critical thinking" tests could be part of the job filter as long as they related to the job at hand?
- rbongers 4y ago
  I agree completely.
strken 4y ago
I went to university to get the mandatory piece of paper. Sometimes I had enough time between courses to actually learn how to program, amid the UML and ethics in CS. I still don't appreciate the value of a good education. You could have replaced mine with pre-recorded Stanford lectures, set coursework, work placements, and Saturday morning coffee with a senior engineer to go over the week with our laptops out. It would have been 10% of the cost or less and it would have taught me more.
JamesBarney 4y ago
See I came out of college learning the exact opposite lesson. I optimized for learning as much as possible, and didn't care at all about grades. Turns out 90% of the shit I learned in college was a waste and GPA matters quite a bit. There are still jobs that's ask my GPA 10 years in. And your first job determines your second one, and I imagine I lost out on somewhere between 70-250k in compensation at least from having a bad GPA.
- rbongers 4y ago
  There are lots of different perspectives on education in this thread, yours included, and I respect that. It's a complicated issue, and no two people have the same experience. This is why I always tell people not to just blindly follow my path because it worked for me, that's the same as just taking the path your parents want or worse. I still want the main takeaway to be that we shouldn't necessarily always be pushing teenagers straight into College, and that something clearly needs to change.
- tester756 4y ago
  >And your first job determines your second one what. the. hell. I hate that mindset with passion. Folks, just skew the odds.
  - apetresc 4y ago
    Huh? I legitimately can't tell what mindset you're railing against, or what "skew the odds" means in this context?
    - tester756 4y ago
      >I legitimately can't tell what mindset you're railing against Basically that there's some "chain" of dependencies, impossible to overcome when it comes to career like previously quoted statement for me sounds like good gpa -> good first job -> fast path to high tc jobs mediocre gpa -> mediocre job -> a lot of other not fancy jobs -> high tc job after a lot of years What I'm saying is that "And your first job determines your second one" is not true (except edge cases like govt jobs). You can start your career at the most unknown company in country and still manage to jump to the top companies >or what "skew the odds" means in this context? Just because the odds are not favoring you, it's still doable

paulpauper 4y ago

, they don't know the value of money, and are just going because their parents just want them to. how does this follow from not cheating. if you care about not wasting money, you would do everything, including even cheating, to pass. they don't even know what they really want to do with their lives or maybe they do know and just see 4 years of college as a waste of time to get there.

barsonme 4y ago
Because most of the cheating is born out of laziness, not from a desire to pass at all costs.
- paulpauper 4y ago
  "all cost" not include cheating as well?
rbongers 4y ago
>if you care about not wasting money, you would do everything, including even cheating, to pass. If you care about not wasting money, why risk everything you've spent and not even gain the education that you've purchased while you're at it? >or maybe they do know and just see 4 years of college as a waste of time to get there. If they truly already have the skills they need to skip to their life of choice - why cheat? If they don't have this capability, their feeling that they should just be able to skip over education is wrong.

bumby 4y ago

To your point, college is a path to education for some and a signal for others (and, probably more accurately, some mixture of both). I think the issue is when both groups (those that cheat and those that do not) both get the same credential. That means the credential has lost its "signal value". To someone who values college as almost exclusively for its educational value, maybe that doesn't matter. But to many, especially HR, the degree is valuable for its signaling capability and watering that down has real and lasting consequences.

eek2121 4y ago

My dude, I make a quarter million a year. I found out how useless college was after I accrued $2,944 in student loans (I attended college after 2001). The value to me was, and continues to be zero. College is not for everyone, and this applies even in countries where higher education is free. The ability to use critical thinking does not come from a college education.

guggleet 4y ago
many make that because of massive information asymmetry. they are players in a giant con game that is engulfing the world. to some, there is more to life than bartering.
paulpauper 4y ago
how many employers req. 'critical thinking' instead of a degree.
- linksnapzz 4y ago
  Far too few. Were it possible; employers might screen candidates on the results of a test of critical thinking, as opposed to a degree. However, this has been illegal since Griggs vs. Duke.
  - t-3 4y ago
    Well, some places do leetcode... and then they ask if you have a degree.
  - bumby 4y ago
    Wasn't the intent of Griggs v. Duke that the testing needed to apropos to the job? Meaning that "critical thinking" tests could be part of the job filter as long as they related to the job at hand?
rbongers 4y ago
I agree completely.

strken 4y ago

I went to university to get the mandatory piece of paper. Sometimes I had enough time between courses to actually learn how to program, amid the UML and ethics in CS. I still don't appreciate the value of a good education. You could have replaced mine with pre-recorded Stanford lectures, set coursework, work placements, and Saturday morning coffee with a senior engineer to go over the week with our laptops out. It would have been 10% of the cost or less and it would have taught me more.

JamesBarney 4y ago

See I came out of college learning the exact opposite lesson. I optimized for learning as much as possible, and didn't care at all about grades. Turns out 90% of the shit I learned in college was a waste and GPA matters quite a bit. There are still jobs that's ask my GPA 10 years in. And your first job determines your second one, and I imagine I lost out on somewhere between 70-250k in compensation at least from having a bad GPA.

rbongers 4y ago
There are lots of different perspectives on education in this thread, yours included, and I respect that. It's a complicated issue, and no two people have the same experience. This is why I always tell people not to just blindly follow my path because it worked for me, that's the same as just taking the path your parents want or worse. I still want the main takeaway to be that we shouldn't necessarily always be pushing teenagers straight into College, and that something clearly needs to change.
tester756 4y ago
>And your first job determines your second one what. the. hell. I hate that mindset with passion. Folks, just skew the odds.
- apetresc 4y ago
  Huh? I legitimately can't tell what mindset you're railing against, or what "skew the odds" means in this context?
  - tester756 4y ago
    >I legitimately can't tell what mindset you're railing against Basically that there's some "chain" of dependencies, impossible to overcome when it comes to career like previously quoted statement for me sounds like good gpa -> good first job -> fast path to high tc jobs mediocre gpa -> mediocre job -> a lot of other not fancy jobs -> high tc job after a lot of years What I'm saying is that "And your first job determines your second one" is not true (except edge cases like govt jobs). You can start your career at the most unknown company in country and still manage to jump to the top companies >or what "skew the odds" means in this context? Just because the odds are not favoring you, it's still doable