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Another thing is that college is voluntary You voluntarily agree to abide by the academic integrity rules. If you don't want to do that, you can voluntarily go

by pvg 4y ago

Another thing is that college is voluntary You voluntarily agree to abide by the academic integrity rules. If you don't want to do that, you can voluntarily go to a different institution with different rules and standards. The goal of the place is learning not pointscoring and cheating undermines that.

necovek 4y ago
If you are doing that, why do you care about others not doing it? I went there for learning, and I never felt that was undermined by others' cheating. How does cheating undermine learning for non-cheaters in college? I can see loss of motivation or external pressures (family or scholarship demanding a particular GPA) when you are curve graded, but that means that one cares not only about learning — which is ok, we all care about ranking to some extent, but as long as you recognize that it's a flawed system, you can either focus on that or focus on learning imho. And accepting that someone else cares about grading more than you do (which pushes many into cheating as well). Edit: Oh, and loss of motivation for the teacher, as brought up by the author in the article.
- pvg 4y ago
  If you are doing that, why do you care about others not doing it? Because there is no way to measure whether the teaching and learning is effective if you just make stuff up. There is no way to do research if you just make stuff up. There is no way to advance human knowledge if you just make stuff up. It's not some convoluted thing, a lot of systems, probably most you encounter in adult life in an industrialized society, depend on essentially voluntary cooperation. That's not to say the way universities work is somehow optimal but again, as you point out yourself, you don't have participate if you think their methods are too poor to bother with.
  - xpe 4y ago
    Well said. To use the economics terminology, there are negative externalities resulting from others cheating.
  - necovek 4y ago
    I am not sure what type of making stuff up are you referring to? How does that flow from my claim that cheating won't affect learning for those who don't cheat?
geraldwhen 4y ago
The goal of college is to receive a degree to unlock job postings. I did not go to college to “learn”, and I’m not sure I know anyone who did.
- dpbriggs 4y ago
  It can be both. You can learn and earn those credentials.
- ameister14 4y ago
  I did. I didn't graduate with a great GPA but I learned a heck of a lot and got that same degree, unlocking job postings.
- xpe 4y ago
  I'm sorry to hear that. Care to share a bit of your story?
- throwaway675309 4y ago
  From a purely depressingly pragmatic perspective, yes you are correct. But for me it was an opportunity to be immersed in a world of abstract knowledge and the exchange of ideas - an experience that I would not trade for anything. It is depressing when I hear from people otherwise, I can't imagine missing out on the joy of learning.
  - Sanras 4y ago
    Some people simply have better things to do, or don't care about learning a specific thing. For example, I care about learning programming in my CS classes. No, I don't care about learning who died in 1938.
Spivak 4y ago
Yea but the pointscoring is literally all that matters, if you change the incentives you’ll see the behavior change with it. If you take away the aspect of college as “a place to get a credential” you’ll see the cheating stop. Instead for those credentials just hold exams like the AP, ACT, SAT, RHCSE, or the 7 Actuarial exams. No college required. Whatever you do to pass them is fine. Then make college totally ungraded except as a mechanism for student feedback. Have tracks for people that just want the credentials (just like the APs) that terminate at the exams. All other courses are just for people who are genuinely interested and confer no status or praise. Now the incentives are aligned. Outside of the testing areas there is literally zero reason for anyone to cheat, and non-credential classes have to actually be interring, engaging, and useful to students for anyone to take them.
- ameister14 4y ago
  >If you take away the aspect of college as “a place to get a credential” you’ll see the cheating stop. No, you won't. People will cheat because it is perceived to be easier than doing the work generally, even if they don't have the external incentive of the score meaning something. People cheat at casual games of "Call of Duty;" not even ranked.
anonymoushn 4y ago
college is voluntary like taxes are voluntary

by pvg 4y ago

necovek 4y ago

If you are doing that, why do you care about others not doing it? I went there for learning, and I never felt that was undermined by others' cheating. How does cheating undermine learning for non-cheaters in college? I can see loss of motivation or external pressures (family or scholarship demanding a particular GPA) when you are curve graded, but that means that one cares not only about learning — which is ok, we all care about ranking to some extent, but as long as you recognize that it's a flawed system, you can either focus on that or focus on learning imho. And accepting that someone else cares about grading more than you do (which pushes many into cheating as well). Edit: Oh, and loss of motivation for the teacher, as brought up by the author in the article.

pvg 4y ago
If you are doing that, why do you care about others not doing it? Because there is no way to measure whether the teaching and learning is effective if you just make stuff up. There is no way to do research if you just make stuff up. There is no way to advance human knowledge if you just make stuff up. It's not some convoluted thing, a lot of systems, probably most you encounter in adult life in an industrialized society, depend on essentially voluntary cooperation. That's not to say the way universities work is somehow optimal but again, as you point out yourself, you don't have participate if you think their methods are too poor to bother with.
- xpe 4y ago
  Well said. To use the economics terminology, there are negative externalities resulting from others cheating.
- necovek 4y ago
  I am not sure what type of making stuff up are you referring to? How does that flow from my claim that cheating won't affect learning for those who don't cheat?

geraldwhen 4y ago

The goal of college is to receive a degree to unlock job postings. I did not go to college to “learn”, and I’m not sure I know anyone who did.

dpbriggs 4y ago
It can be both. You can learn and earn those credentials.
ameister14 4y ago
I did. I didn't graduate with a great GPA but I learned a heck of a lot and got that same degree, unlocking job postings.
xpe 4y ago
I'm sorry to hear that. Care to share a bit of your story?
throwaway675309 4y ago
From a purely depressingly pragmatic perspective, yes you are correct. But for me it was an opportunity to be immersed in a world of abstract knowledge and the exchange of ideas - an experience that I would not trade for anything. It is depressing when I hear from people otherwise, I can't imagine missing out on the joy of learning.
- Sanras 4y ago
  Some people simply have better things to do, or don't care about learning a specific thing. For example, I care about learning programming in my CS classes. No, I don't care about learning who died in 1938.

Spivak 4y ago

Yea but the pointscoring is literally all that matters, if you change the incentives you’ll see the behavior change with it. If you take away the aspect of college as “a place to get a credential” you’ll see the cheating stop. Instead for those credentials just hold exams like the AP, ACT, SAT, RHCSE, or the 7 Actuarial exams. No college required. Whatever you do to pass them is fine. Then make college totally ungraded except as a mechanism for student feedback. Have tracks for people that just want the credentials (just like the APs) that terminate at the exams. All other courses are just for people who are genuinely interested and confer no status or praise. Now the incentives are aligned. Outside of the testing areas there is literally zero reason for anyone to cheat, and non-credential classes have to actually be interring, engaging, and useful to students for anyone to take them.

ameister14 4y ago
>If you take away the aspect of college as “a place to get a credential” you’ll see the cheating stop. No, you won't. People will cheat because it is perceived to be easier than doing the work generally, even if they don't have the external incentive of the score meaning something. People cheat at casual games of "Call of Duty;" not even ranked.

anonymoushn 4y ago

college is voluntary like taxes are voluntary