6 ms·

Outside of Ontario Canada, I'm glad "software engineer" is not a regulated title. Imagine having a contrarian opinion on design patterns and then getting your l

Outside of Ontario Canada, I'm glad "software engineer" is not a regulated title. Imagine having a contrarian opinion on design patterns and then getting your livelihood threatened.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
light_hue_1 4y ago
It's not just Ontario. It's pretty much all of Canada. Everyone should be careful about this. Quebec's equivalent of PEO (Professional Engineers Ontario) is the OIQ (Ordre des ingénieurs du Québec). People in Ontario and Quebec have gotten nasty letters threatening legal action even for saying they're software engineers on Linkedin. Microsoft fought the law in Quebec and lost. Alberta, BC, and even New Brunswick have similar laws. Other provinces might too.
- gruez 4y ago
  >People in Ontario and Quebec have gotten nasty letters threatening legal action even for saying they're software engineers on Linkedin. Seriously? Are the engineering licensing organizations really scouring linkedin for people calling themselves "engineers, and sending threatening letters to anyone who's not on their list?
  - jbay808 4y ago
    Yes.
  - lesam 4y ago
    Yes. When I worked in Quebec (around 2017) the company got a reminder from OIQ that employees should not call themselves Engineers on LinkedIn unless they had a P.Eng. The Engineer title is taken seriously in Canada, similar to how you can’t claim to be a medical doctor unless you actually are one.
- oceanplexian 4y ago
  Governments are like Religions. Every one of them arrogantly thinks their way is the superior way to do things (Across all sides of the political spectrum), despite the existence of contradictory governments with perfectly functioning, and sometimes better functioning societies. For some reason it seems like the Internet pisses governments off of all stripes, since a Global, free, meritocracy where everyone can compete on an equal playing field is like giving them the finger. And while governments can keep a tight leash on their own citizens with rules and regulations, they can’t make the rest of the world do whatever crazy nonsense they feel like. In this example, Canada will just be left behind in the 21st Century economy.
  - wolverine876 4y ago
    > a Global, free, meritocracy where everyone can compete on an equal playing field I don't see the Internet this way at all. While the above was a dream of Internet pioneers, now it's mostly fraud, mis- and disinformation campaigns, and parties using their power to dominate the marketplace. > Every one of them arrogantly thinks their way is the superior way to do things (Across all sides of the political spectrum), despite the existence of contradictory governments with perfectly functioning, and sometimes better functioning societies. That's ironcially similar to the parent comment, and a good example of what is on the Internet. Instead of facts, serious questions and analysis, it relies on trying to create a tide of emotion.
  - pbourke 4y ago
    The job title is just “developer” or “programmer” rather than “engineer”. Not a big deal.
  - throw0101a 4y ago
    > meritocracy You may wish to examine this concept more closely before thinking it is a completely good idea. Specifically see the book The meritocracy trap by Markovits: * https://www.themeritocracytrap.com https://www.themeritocracytrap.com * https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/09/meritocracys-miserable-winners/594760/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/09/meritoc... * https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/10/24/20919030/meritocracy-book-daniel-markovits-inequality-rich https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/10/24/20919030/...
hlieberman 4y ago
Quebec also, as well as Texas for a couple of years.
kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
"Developer with an engineering degree" is a reasonable substitute for regimes.
throwaway787544 4y ago
I'm of the opposite opinion. The industry is awash in newbies with senior titles being put on software projects where they are directly responsible for safety, privacy, health care, etc. Right now when software kills people, they chock it up to a system or hardware failure. In the next decade we will hear more about software bugs killing people, outing them, bankrupting them, overturning governments, hobbling armies, and then we'll have to reckon with why regulated titles exist.
- Gigachad 4y ago
  No one can agree on what should actually be part of the regulation though. It would end up becoming a box checking exercise like security is where complying with requirements and actually being secure are unrelated. Can you imagine if governments regulated something like if your code touches important data, it must either be written in a verified safe language like Rust? How would people feel about that? Regular engineering is a lot easier to regulate because there are a lot of agreeable rules like “fire escape stairs need to be x cm wide with a step depth of z cm. And there is no situational context that needs to be taken in to account. While all programming best practices are vague helpers that should be discarded as soon as they aren’t helping.
  - vineyardmike 4y ago
    > Can you imagine if governments regulated something like if your code touches important data, it must either be written in a verified safe language like Rust? How would people feel about that? Considering the history of memory-not-safe bugs and exploits and the efforts to rewrite critical things in rust due to memory safety I imagine this could be a real debate. In the “real world” we have requirements for materials and tools and practices because some are less safe. Imagine if a building was welded with a technique that could fail? We’d legislate away from that technique. Even when people say “there are ways to make unsafe welding ‘safe enough’”. Software could maybe use some rigor even if it means “go slow and don’t break things”.
    - Gigachad 4y ago
VerminOctopus1 4y ago
Is software engineer a regulated title in Ontario? I’m working here, as a software engineer (remotely mind you), and have no special credential…
- wheelinsupial 4y ago
  I think so... but I'm neither a lawyer nor an engineer... "PEO considers non-licensed use of “Software Engineer” to be a violation of our Act." https://www.peo.on.ca/public-protection/complaints-and-illegal-practice/report-unlicensed-individuals-or-companies-2#software https://www.peo.on.ca/public-protection/complaints-and-illeg...

Outside of Ontario Canada, I'm glad "software engineer" is not a regulated title. Imagine having a contrarian opinion on design patterns and then getting your livelihood threatened.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

light_hue_1 4y ago

It's not just Ontario. It's pretty much all of Canada. Everyone should be careful about this. Quebec's equivalent of PEO (Professional Engineers Ontario) is the OIQ (Ordre des ingénieurs du Québec). People in Ontario and Quebec have gotten nasty letters threatening legal action even for saying they're software engineers on Linkedin. Microsoft fought the law in Quebec and lost. Alberta, BC, and even New Brunswick have similar laws. Other provinces might too.

gruez 4y ago
>People in Ontario and Quebec have gotten nasty letters threatening legal action even for saying they're software engineers on Linkedin. Seriously? Are the engineering licensing organizations really scouring linkedin for people calling themselves "engineers, and sending threatening letters to anyone who's not on their list?
- jbay808 4y ago
  Yes.
- lesam 4y ago
  Yes. When I worked in Quebec (around 2017) the company got a reminder from OIQ that employees should not call themselves Engineers on LinkedIn unless they had a P.Eng. The Engineer title is taken seriously in Canada, similar to how you can’t claim to be a medical doctor unless you actually are one.
oceanplexian 4y ago
Governments are like Religions. Every one of them arrogantly thinks their way is the superior way to do things (Across all sides of the political spectrum), despite the existence of contradictory governments with perfectly functioning, and sometimes better functioning societies. For some reason it seems like the Internet pisses governments off of all stripes, since a Global, free, meritocracy where everyone can compete on an equal playing field is like giving them the finger. And while governments can keep a tight leash on their own citizens with rules and regulations, they can’t make the rest of the world do whatever crazy nonsense they feel like. In this example, Canada will just be left behind in the 21st Century economy.
- wolverine876 4y ago
  > a Global, free, meritocracy where everyone can compete on an equal playing field I don't see the Internet this way at all. While the above was a dream of Internet pioneers, now it's mostly fraud, mis- and disinformation campaigns, and parties using their power to dominate the marketplace. > Every one of them arrogantly thinks their way is the superior way to do things (Across all sides of the political spectrum), despite the existence of contradictory governments with perfectly functioning, and sometimes better functioning societies. That's ironcially similar to the parent comment, and a good example of what is on the Internet. Instead of facts, serious questions and analysis, it relies on trying to create a tide of emotion.
- pbourke 4y ago
  The job title is just “developer” or “programmer” rather than “engineer”. Not a big deal.
- throw0101a 4y ago
  > meritocracy You may wish to examine this concept more closely before thinking it is a completely good idea. Specifically see the book The meritocracy trap by Markovits: * https://www.themeritocracytrap.com https://www.themeritocracytrap.com * https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/09/meritocracys-miserable-winners/594760/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/09/meritoc... * https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/10/24/20919030/meritocracy-book-daniel-markovits-inequality-rich https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/10/24/20919030/...

hlieberman 4y ago

Quebec also, as well as Texas for a couple of years.

kevin_thibedeau 4y ago

"Developer with an engineering degree" is a reasonable substitute for regimes.

throwaway787544 4y ago

I'm of the opposite opinion. The industry is awash in newbies with senior titles being put on software projects where they are directly responsible for safety, privacy, health care, etc. Right now when software kills people, they chock it up to a system or hardware failure. In the next decade we will hear more about software bugs killing people, outing them, bankrupting them, overturning governments, hobbling armies, and then we'll have to reckon with why regulated titles exist.

Gigachad 4y ago
No one can agree on what should actually be part of the regulation though. It would end up becoming a box checking exercise like security is where complying with requirements and actually being secure are unrelated. Can you imagine if governments regulated something like if your code touches important data, it must either be written in a verified safe language like Rust? How would people feel about that? Regular engineering is a lot easier to regulate because there are a lot of agreeable rules like “fire escape stairs need to be x cm wide with a step depth of z cm. And there is no situational context that needs to be taken in to account. While all programming best practices are vague helpers that should be discarded as soon as they aren’t helping.
- vineyardmike 4y ago
  > Can you imagine if governments regulated something like if your code touches important data, it must either be written in a verified safe language like Rust? How would people feel about that? Considering the history of memory-not-safe bugs and exploits and the efforts to rewrite critical things in rust due to memory safety I imagine this could be a real debate. In the “real world” we have requirements for materials and tools and practices because some are less safe. Imagine if a building was welded with a technique that could fail? We’d legislate away from that technique. Even when people say “there are ways to make unsafe welding ‘safe enough’”. Software could maybe use some rigor even if it means “go slow and don’t break things”.
  - Gigachad 4y ago

VerminOctopus1 4y ago

Is software engineer a regulated title in Ontario? I’m working here, as a software engineer (remotely mind you), and have no special credential…

wheelinsupial 4y ago
I think so... but I'm neither a lawyer nor an engineer... "PEO considers non-licensed use of “Software Engineer” to be a violation of our Act." https://www.peo.on.ca/public-protection/complaints-and-illegal-practice/report-unlicensed-individuals-or-companies-2#software https://www.peo.on.ca/public-protection/complaints-and-illeg...