4 ms·

Engine energy efficiency is unrelated to money, so dollar-per-neo-archaic-gallon is an invalid unit for this. I don't see how it would educate anyone about the

by pornel 4y ago

Engine energy efficiency is unrelated to money, so dollar-per-neo-archaic-gallon is an invalid unit for this. I don't see how it would educate anyone about the EV vs ICE efficiency difference, but I can easily see how an impractical unit of imaginary electric gallon can be used to mislead people used to buying gasoline gallons about true costs of running an EV. TFA is about cost, and "cost per distance travelled" unit is the most appropriate one to answer relevant questions like "how much a 1000-mile road trip costs in an EV vs ICE". Car engine energy efficiency needs to be compared using other units, like kWh/100km (J/m), or percentage of input energy converted to force, or something more comprehensive like well-to-wheel ratio that includes losses to production and transportation. EV owners definitely know their car's efficiency very well, because it determines car's range, and is typically prominently displayed in the car.

rektide 4y ago
> Engine energy efficiency is unrelated to money, so dollar-per-neo-archaic-gallon is an invalid unit for this. Someone filling up their EV and seeing their 75kWh car filled up with 2.2gallons of gas could not be a more obvious, honest, simple way of making the efficiency of their vehicle obvious, in the most direct & clear parallel way possible. Using terms & expressions & scales already well known makes it clear. > TFA is about cost, The article is about cost & I'm proposing we be able to compare costs. And you: > and "cost per distance travelled" unit is the most appropriate one to answer relevant questions like "how much a 1000-mile road trip costs in an EV vs ICE".* Are making up complete nonsense unrelated to cost that expresses only your own biases about how you want things to be displayed. And you're doing so in a way that hides & makes us unable to directly compare gas vs EV. This insistence that consumers have completely different ways of viewing the energy inputs- kWh versus gallons- is fragging bizarre. The EPA themselves provides a factor to convert between the two, it's not fake, & it tells a very real story. And it should make everyone feel really good knowing their EVs sip energy, which would be more apparent if we could see how few a "gallons" we fill up with.
- pornel 4y ago
  Sizes of gas tanks and especially batteries vary significantly for reasons other than motor efficiency. Battery sizes can vary by a factor of two even between trims of the same EV model, so how many "gallons" fit in a "tank" depends on so many other variables that it makes any comparisons meaningless. I'm pretty sure that "cost per distance travelled" unit is directly related to cost. I know you're trolling, I'm just debunking you for the benefit of others who may stumble upon this nonsense. EV users have no reason to measure anything in an archaic USA-only unit for a dying technology. If you want to unify measurements to make them comparable, you should be converting gallons to Joules (e.g. 4GJ per tank of gas) or kWh (e.g. 1000kWh per tank of gas [this is a realistic number, BTW]). These are world-wide standard units of energy. kWh is used because appliances report their energy usage in kW, so it makes it easier for consumers to judge battery sizes and estimate energy costs when they're in kW per hour. Insisting that USA-gas-gallon-equivalent approximation is the right unit for electricity is as trollishly anachronistic as measuring gasoline in bales of hay. How many e-bales-of-hay does your tank hold? How expensive is gasoline in dollars per bale of hay? If you fill a tank with 5 trusses of hay, does it mean ICE engines are more or less efficient than horses?
  - rektide 4y ago
    You seem to be once again way way way way far way from anything I'm saying & spinning your own yarn. I was decidedly not talking about physical size. I was talking about energy capacity, as I have been this whole time. > I'm pretty sure that "cost per distance travelled" unit is directly related to cost. I know you're trolling, I'm just debunking you It's not though, not without a host of other later factors. Knowing what the inputs themselves cost us, being able to compare what we pay for energy, is the point of this article. Not just calculating work done. And it's especially important given the radical range of efficiency different EVs have. Everyone should have a common understanding of what they're paying for, but that's much much harder when the ranges of efficiency are so vastly different for different EVs and across different EV driving conditions. I'm not trolling. You're being a jerkwad to me, & rude, & you can't argue a single point straight & misdirect again and again. > EV users have no reason to measure anything in an archaic USA-only unit for a dying technology. In most countries, we'd show "liters" of electricity. The point is to use a common frame of reference that's already known. You're once again ignoring the obvious to try to win cheap points & create disbelief, & it's still misdirection & cheap & detracts the sense that you are arguing anything earnestly. > converting gallons to Joules (e.g. 4GJ per tank of gas) or kWh (e.g. 1000kWh per tank of gas [this is a realistic number, BTW]) This is reasonable, except three things: 1) you're measuring tanks not actual units people know, 2) your "realistic" tank of gas (at 20g) has 50% more energy than the EPA says it does, and 3) perhaps most problematic, no one frigging has any intuitive sense of what a kWh is and BOTH electric & gas drivers would be totally clueless. I generally like the idea, but it's just not practical or helpful to unify on the thing almost no one has any real grasp of. > is the right unit for electricity is as trollishly anachronistic as measuring gasoline in bales of hay Please, by all means, disagree, but you needent result to personalizing your insults. Anachronistic, sure, whatever, but you have repeatedly personally demegrated me by calling this trolling, and it's inciteful, rude, crass, obnoxious, unproductive, and low. Flabbergastingly rude. I am being quite serious & have elaborated again & again a simple understandable virtue that i want: understandability & comparability. You don't seem to have any interest in trying to meet the population where they are & to try to make what we already have a grasp of useful & helpful in explaining where we're going & now new things work, fine, but I dont insult you over it. You haven't debated as single point, you've just asserted your own beliefs & mocked me. I desperately wish you would stop.

by pornel 4y ago

rektide 4y ago

> Engine energy efficiency is unrelated to money, so dollar-per-neo-archaic-gallon is an invalid unit for this. Someone filling up their EV and seeing their 75kWh car filled up with 2.2gallons of gas could not be a more obvious, honest, simple way of making the efficiency of their vehicle obvious, in the most direct & clear parallel way possible. Using terms & expressions & scales already well known makes it clear. > TFA is about cost, The article is about cost & I'm proposing we be able to compare costs. And you: > and "cost per distance travelled" unit is the most appropriate one to answer relevant questions like "how much a 1000-mile road trip costs in an EV vs ICE".* Are making up complete nonsense unrelated to cost that expresses only your own biases about how you want things to be displayed. And you're doing so in a way that hides & makes us unable to directly compare gas vs EV. This insistence that consumers have completely different ways of viewing the energy inputs- kWh versus gallons- is fragging bizarre. The EPA themselves provides a factor to convert between the two, it's not fake, & it tells a very real story. And it should make everyone feel really good knowing their EVs sip energy, which would be more apparent if we could see how few a "gallons" we fill up with.

pornel 4y ago
Sizes of gas tanks and especially batteries vary significantly for reasons other than motor efficiency. Battery sizes can vary by a factor of two even between trims of the same EV model, so how many "gallons" fit in a "tank" depends on so many other variables that it makes any comparisons meaningless. I'm pretty sure that "cost per distance travelled" unit is directly related to cost. I know you're trolling, I'm just debunking you for the benefit of others who may stumble upon this nonsense. EV users have no reason to measure anything in an archaic USA-only unit for a dying technology. If you want to unify measurements to make them comparable, you should be converting gallons to Joules (e.g. 4GJ per tank of gas) or kWh (e.g. 1000kWh per tank of gas [this is a realistic number, BTW]). These are world-wide standard units of energy. kWh is used because appliances report their energy usage in kW, so it makes it easier for consumers to judge battery sizes and estimate energy costs when they're in kW per hour. Insisting that USA-gas-gallon-equivalent approximation is the right unit for electricity is as trollishly anachronistic as measuring gasoline in bales of hay. How many e-bales-of-hay does your tank hold? How expensive is gasoline in dollars per bale of hay? If you fill a tank with 5 trusses of hay, does it mean ICE engines are more or less efficient than horses?
- rektide 4y ago
  You seem to be once again way way way way far way from anything I'm saying & spinning your own yarn. I was decidedly not talking about physical size. I was talking about energy capacity, as I have been this whole time. > I'm pretty sure that "cost per distance travelled" unit is directly related to cost. I know you're trolling, I'm just debunking you It's not though, not without a host of other later factors. Knowing what the inputs themselves cost us, being able to compare what we pay for energy, is the point of this article. Not just calculating work done. And it's especially important given the radical range of efficiency different EVs have. Everyone should have a common understanding of what they're paying for, but that's much much harder when the ranges of efficiency are so vastly different for different EVs and across different EV driving conditions. I'm not trolling. You're being a jerkwad to me, & rude, & you can't argue a single point straight & misdirect again and again. > EV users have no reason to measure anything in an archaic USA-only unit for a dying technology. In most countries, we'd show "liters" of electricity. The point is to use a common frame of reference that's already known. You're once again ignoring the obvious to try to win cheap points & create disbelief, & it's still misdirection & cheap & detracts the sense that you are arguing anything earnestly. > converting gallons to Joules (e.g. 4GJ per tank of gas) or kWh (e.g. 1000kWh per tank of gas [this is a realistic number, BTW]) This is reasonable, except three things: 1) you're measuring tanks not actual units people know, 2) your "realistic" tank of gas (at 20g) has 50% more energy than the EPA says it does, and 3) perhaps most problematic, no one frigging has any intuitive sense of what a kWh is and BOTH electric & gas drivers would be totally clueless. I generally like the idea, but it's just not practical or helpful to unify on the thing almost no one has any real grasp of. > is the right unit for electricity is as trollishly anachronistic as measuring gasoline in bales of hay Please, by all means, disagree, but you needent result to personalizing your insults. Anachronistic, sure, whatever, but you have repeatedly personally demegrated me by calling this trolling, and it's inciteful, rude, crass, obnoxious, unproductive, and low. Flabbergastingly rude. I am being quite serious & have elaborated again & again a simple understandable virtue that i want: understandability & comparability. You don't seem to have any interest in trying to meet the population where they are & to try to make what we already have a grasp of useful & helpful in explaining where we're going & now new things work, fine, but I dont insult you over it. You haven't debated as single point, you've just asserted your own beliefs & mocked me. I desperately wish you would stop.