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Subcultures can have countercultures, though. An example would be tabletop RPGs. D&D would be the mainstream within the and outside of the subculture. There's

Subcultures can have countercultures, though. An example would be tabletop RPGs. D&D would be the mainstream within the and outside of the subculture. There's a counterculture that rejects that games should be a power fantasy (as in fantasize, not as in elves and dwarves) about killing people and taking their stuff.

jltsiren 4y ago
I'm not sure D&D is actually that mainstream inside the subculture. It's a commercially successful brand, and it often serves as an introduction to tabletop RPGs. But other games and other styles have been popular since at least the 80s, and the games people buy are not necessary the games they play. A commercial RPG is essentially a framework for telling your stories. Even if you play weekly, you don't have to buy new products every year to continue playing. People who play tabletop RPGs as a long-term hobby tend to focus more on the setting than on the ruleset. They choose a setting, which has implications on what kind of characters they will play, what kind of stories they will tell, and which ruleset is the most appropriate for that. Once a campaign is over, they often want to try another setting. Because there are only a few commercial D&D settings, the game after D&D is likely not D&D.
- jpmoral 4y ago
  This is a bit of a tangent to my original point but picking up a different game because D&D doesn't do the setting you want isn't the counterculture I was talking about. As an example, say your group decides they want to play a group of super-soldiers roaming around WW2 Europe killing ever bigger and badder Nazis while gaining more abilities and better equipment. You then pick up GURPS or D20 Modern or whatever. That's not counterculture, it's the same experience but reskinned and with different mechanics. What I'd consider counterculture to be is something like Night Witches, which is still set in WW2 but is a very different play experience and tells a very different kind of story. (It may be that I am missing your point and that we are actually somewhat in agreement.)
  - jltsiren 4y ago
    I meant that tabletop RPGs have "always" been more diverse than D&D, GURPS, and other games like that. A kind of realism became popular in the 80s. Combat was supposed to be deadly, and even experienced characters could die due to bad luck in any routine fight. You were always expected to consider whether there were better approaches to the situation than fighting. Another variant of this trend was cosmic horror, where you might be able to fight the minions, but the actual villains were far beyond your characters. If you encountered them, your only choice was to flee, and the expected outcome of a campaign was a descent into madness. In the 90s, (A)D&D started falling into obscurity due to poor business decisions. Many games of that time emphasized storytelling and role-playing over combat and other game mechanical considerations. Key D&D mechanics such as hit points, character levels, and extreme character progression were often considered obsolete. (But video games eventually brought them back to tabletop gaming.) The 2000s saw the return of game mechanics, both in the form of D&D and the rise of experimental rule systems. Once common idea was that game mechanics should be used for resolving outcomes rather than actions. For example, you first discussed your plans for the battle, then resolved it with a few die rolls (or maybe with no dice at all), and then you narrated the events. Many designers explored games with an extremely narrow focus. For example, the rules would assume that you were playing minions of a villain who treated you badly. The situation got progressively worse, and you were eventually expected to try to overthrow the villain. I'm less familiar with games from the 2010s, because life has taken me around the world and there have been fewer opportunities for gaming. But I'm still involved in organizing a largeish volunteer-run gaming convention. Based on what I see there, D&D-style games have not become that dominant.
    - jpmoral 4y ago
      I see. That's good then, because from where I sit D&D is the 800-lbs gorilla that dominates mind-share especially among newcomers. Nothing wrong with liking it, I guess I feel that more people should be aware that there's so much more. Was that 'My Life with Master' you were referring to?
      - jltsiren 4y ago

jltsiren 4y ago

I'm not sure D&D is actually that mainstream inside the subculture. It's a commercially successful brand, and it often serves as an introduction to tabletop RPGs. But other games and other styles have been popular since at least the 80s, and the games people buy are not necessary the games they play. A commercial RPG is essentially a framework for telling your stories. Even if you play weekly, you don't have to buy new products every year to continue playing. People who play tabletop RPGs as a long-term hobby tend to focus more on the setting than on the ruleset. They choose a setting, which has implications on what kind of characters they will play, what kind of stories they will tell, and which ruleset is the most appropriate for that. Once a campaign is over, they often want to try another setting. Because there are only a few commercial D&D settings, the game after D&D is likely not D&D.

jpmoral 4y ago
This is a bit of a tangent to my original point but picking up a different game because D&D doesn't do the setting you want isn't the counterculture I was talking about. As an example, say your group decides they want to play a group of super-soldiers roaming around WW2 Europe killing ever bigger and badder Nazis while gaining more abilities and better equipment. You then pick up GURPS or D20 Modern or whatever. That's not counterculture, it's the same experience but reskinned and with different mechanics. What I'd consider counterculture to be is something like Night Witches, which is still set in WW2 but is a very different play experience and tells a very different kind of story. (It may be that I am missing your point and that we are actually somewhat in agreement.)
- jltsiren 4y ago
  I meant that tabletop RPGs have "always" been more diverse than D&D, GURPS, and other games like that. A kind of realism became popular in the 80s. Combat was supposed to be deadly, and even experienced characters could die due to bad luck in any routine fight. You were always expected to consider whether there were better approaches to the situation than fighting. Another variant of this trend was cosmic horror, where you might be able to fight the minions, but the actual villains were far beyond your characters. If you encountered them, your only choice was to flee, and the expected outcome of a campaign was a descent into madness. In the 90s, (A)D&D started falling into obscurity due to poor business decisions. Many games of that time emphasized storytelling and role-playing over combat and other game mechanical considerations. Key D&D mechanics such as hit points, character levels, and extreme character progression were often considered obsolete. (But video games eventually brought them back to tabletop gaming.) The 2000s saw the return of game mechanics, both in the form of D&D and the rise of experimental rule systems. Once common idea was that game mechanics should be used for resolving outcomes rather than actions. For example, you first discussed your plans for the battle, then resolved it with a few die rolls (or maybe with no dice at all), and then you narrated the events. Many designers explored games with an extremely narrow focus. For example, the rules would assume that you were playing minions of a villain who treated you badly. The situation got progressively worse, and you were eventually expected to try to overthrow the villain. I'm less familiar with games from the 2010s, because life has taken me around the world and there have been fewer opportunities for gaming. But I'm still involved in organizing a largeish volunteer-run gaming convention. Based on what I see there, D&D-style games have not become that dominant.
  - jpmoral 4y ago
    I see. That's good then, because from where I sit D&D is the 800-lbs gorilla that dominates mind-share especially among newcomers. Nothing wrong with liking it, I guess I feel that more people should be aware that there's so much more. Was that 'My Life with Master' you were referring to?
    - jltsiren 4y ago