4 ms·

Ask HN: Should expectant parents get evaluation/counseling for child rearing

I saw this https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/ns3x8ftkqoe-123 and the mother of the Texas School Shooter asks us not to judge him and that ‘he had his reasons’. My jaw dropped to the floor. I don’t know if something is lost in translation. I still hear on social media and comments that the state of Texas and the police there is to be blamed. And that the shooter is really the victim for not getting adequate mental health intervention. As I think more about it, when should the help really come? Shouldn’t it actually go to the parents even before the child is born? Most parents will admit that children don’t come with an instruction manual. Maybe they should and they should get it before the child is born just like expectant mothers get medical and dietary counsel. In earlier days, it was community and family. With nuclear families, they are often isolated from community and in countries like America with a large immigrant population but often blended, there is no access or support from ‘people just like us’. I say this as an immigrant because I have a lot of friends from diff cultural backgrounds, but when it comes to food or lifestyle or entertainment, I reach out to those from my own background because I feel like I can relate more with them..to be able to speak in my own language and eat the same food and have the same faith etc. While first generation families still maintain ties, with the second generation, the children look different but feel like they are American. In public schools where child rearing is seemingly outsourced to, they seem to be doing an awful job. And no surprise..because they are not equipped to deal with this level of diversity and those who can’t conform are alienated. So it has to be parents who raise children and not state run schools. But how do we go about this? This school shootings phenomenon seems to be uniquely American and this is how I am trying to rationalize it. So we have to come up with an American solution to an American problem. It has to start before birth and it has to be towards parents so they understand the unique challenges of raising children in America as Americans. We can’t import what some other country is doing wrt education or parenting. I would appreciate any respectful thoughts and discussions that introduce solutions to this problem.

gus_massa 4y ago
Hi from Argentina! I hope to give an external perspective. My first recommendation is to go to thttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_th... and make an excel file with the data of each incident, and try to make clear if the attacker was an immigrant "0", the son of an immigrant "1", the grand son of an immigrant "2", ... It's a strange metric, because if only one of your grandparents is an immigrant, do you get the same number in that field that if all your grandparents are immigrants. My family is very weird, so some of my ancestor arrived recently and some a very long time ago. Try to imagine what would you write in that field for you and your friends. Most immigrant are nice people. Some not. Most people with long history of family there are nice people. Some not. Most people with complicated ancestors structure are nice people. Some not. In my opinion you are putting too much weight in the last case, and trying to fix it one detail that is not a common pattern and will not be useful to prevent next case.
- jelliclesfarm 4y ago
  I hear you. I don’t want to focus on this one case but this was the one that got me wondering because I can’t stop thinking about it. More than any other community, I feel like perhaps Americans are drowning in a melting pot and sinking in it because they can’t seem to create community. I don’t understand why it’s so hard to create community here. When I was growing up in india, doors were always open with neighbours. Now, I have to call or text before I even go to drop something at my neighbors because it’s ‘manners’. I get that but I wonder if there is a trade off. Moms always watched out for each other’s children in the neighborhood. This was the ‘village’ that raised children. I don’t think someone else’s mom can take the liberty to scold or instruct another’s child in America. This is also a feature of ‘community’. It is not to say that there aren’t problems with ‘community’ but that was an acceptable price for the greater benefits. In America, there is no acceptable price that infringes upon individuality. No, Sir! There seems to be very clear disadvantages to this way of life. Schools are trying hard to inculcate conformity but that’s not a good thing either. Conformity works in small homogenous groups and there has to be multiple small homogenous groups to create diversity. Creating dense communities of individuals who can’t relate to their neighbors is not diversity. The ‘melting pot’ is not working. Everyone ends up feeling alienated but is being made to conform. I wonder if this happens in other countries too.
aerostable_slug 4y ago
So, Doulas are trained professionals who teach mothers & couples about pertinent topics before, during, and after childbirth. They provide ongoing informational and emotional support and can be invaluable to a new mother who, for example, has never breast fed a baby and isn't quite sure how to do it. They frankly substitute for extended families (really grandmothers) that once lived in the same household or very close-by, as well as more communicative experiences with one's neighbors. As you say, in the past this came from community and family. I'm not sure how any of this has to do with school shootings or diversity. The killer may have had late-teen onset schizotypal disorder. While he broadcast warning signs, it's IMHO reasonable to wonder if his mother (who seems to have had her own issues) or grandfather (a convicted felon) would view going to the authorities as a first step. It's not unusual for those who have been involved with the criminal justice system to not exactly bond with law enforcement (or .gov of many types) afterwards.
- jelliclesfarm 4y ago
  So if parents are not involved in someone as young as a teen, who is responsible? I remember a case recently against LAPD and/or CPS who were sued by the family of a brutally murdered child because they didn’t remove the child from the abusive parent. I was blown away because I don’t understand the point of monetarily compensating a family with money from tax dollars because one of their own family members acted against one of their own. Perhaps the state shouldn’t have as much powers or as much responsibility when it comes to family. So how do we implement law and order and justice. Everything seems like we are dealing with a bizarro world logic and rationalization. In this particular case, the mother says that the shooter has ‘his own reasons and shouldn’t be judged’ and everyone is blaming the politicians and law and order Dept and even the state of Texas. It makes no sense to me.

gus_massa 4y ago

Hi from Argentina! I hope to give an external perspective. My first recommendation is to go to thttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_th... and make an excel file with the data of each incident, and try to make clear if the attacker was an immigrant "0", the son of an immigrant "1", the grand son of an immigrant "2", ... It's a strange metric, because if only one of your grandparents is an immigrant, do you get the same number in that field that if all your grandparents are immigrants. My family is very weird, so some of my ancestor arrived recently and some a very long time ago. Try to imagine what would you write in that field for you and your friends. Most immigrant are nice people. Some not. Most people with long history of family there are nice people. Some not. Most people with complicated ancestors structure are nice people. Some not. In my opinion you are putting too much weight in the last case, and trying to fix it one detail that is not a common pattern and will not be useful to prevent next case.

jelliclesfarm 4y ago
I hear you. I don’t want to focus on this one case but this was the one that got me wondering because I can’t stop thinking about it. More than any other community, I feel like perhaps Americans are drowning in a melting pot and sinking in it because they can’t seem to create community. I don’t understand why it’s so hard to create community here. When I was growing up in india, doors were always open with neighbours. Now, I have to call or text before I even go to drop something at my neighbors because it’s ‘manners’. I get that but I wonder if there is a trade off. Moms always watched out for each other’s children in the neighborhood. This was the ‘village’ that raised children. I don’t think someone else’s mom can take the liberty to scold or instruct another’s child in America. This is also a feature of ‘community’. It is not to say that there aren’t problems with ‘community’ but that was an acceptable price for the greater benefits. In America, there is no acceptable price that infringes upon individuality. No, Sir! There seems to be very clear disadvantages to this way of life. Schools are trying hard to inculcate conformity but that’s not a good thing either. Conformity works in small homogenous groups and there has to be multiple small homogenous groups to create diversity. Creating dense communities of individuals who can’t relate to their neighbors is not diversity. The ‘melting pot’ is not working. Everyone ends up feeling alienated but is being made to conform. I wonder if this happens in other countries too.

aerostable_slug 4y ago

So, Doulas are trained professionals who teach mothers & couples about pertinent topics before, during, and after childbirth. They provide ongoing informational and emotional support and can be invaluable to a new mother who, for example, has never breast fed a baby and isn't quite sure how to do it. They frankly substitute for extended families (really grandmothers) that once lived in the same household or very close-by, as well as more communicative experiences with one's neighbors. As you say, in the past this came from community and family. I'm not sure how any of this has to do with school shootings or diversity. The killer may have had late-teen onset schizotypal disorder. While he broadcast warning signs, it's IMHO reasonable to wonder if his mother (who seems to have had her own issues) or grandfather (a convicted felon) would view going to the authorities as a first step. It's not unusual for those who have been involved with the criminal justice system to not exactly bond with law enforcement (or .gov of many types) afterwards.

jelliclesfarm 4y ago
So if parents are not involved in someone as young as a teen, who is responsible? I remember a case recently against LAPD and/or CPS who were sued by the family of a brutally murdered child because they didn’t remove the child from the abusive parent. I was blown away because I don’t understand the point of monetarily compensating a family with money from tax dollars because one of their own family members acted against one of their own. Perhaps the state shouldn’t have as much powers or as much responsibility when it comes to family. So how do we implement law and order and justice. Everything seems like we are dealing with a bizarro world logic and rationalization. In this particular case, the mother says that the shooter has ‘his own reasons and shouldn’t be judged’ and everyone is blaming the politicians and law and order Dept and even the state of Texas. It makes no sense to me.