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I use and develop on devuan. I can't see any reason to add systemD, a so-called init system that uses binaries and extends it's tenticals in to every part of th

I use and develop on devuan. I can't see any reason to add systemD, a so-called init system that uses binaries and extends it's tenticals in to every part of the OS. You aren't running linux anymore, you are running systemD. It is an abomination, and I will never adopt it.

kaba0 4y ago
You didn’t mention any single factual reason to not adapt it. Isn’t the usual unix tools just little binaries? Also, IPC can very easily bloat the problem domain to much harder levels because now you have to deal with (de)serialization as well. So doing the same thing what systemd does with pipes would be an unholy mess.
- irthomasthomas 4y ago
  I mentioned two, the binaries and the long tentacles. To be clear, I was talking about systemd using binaries in place of plain text LOG files. Both those choices are a huge break from linux philosophy. I expected systemd pros would know I was talking about that. Enjoy your systemd. But don't hate on me for prefering linux.
  - kaba0 4y ago
    What are long tentacles? As for log files, I don’t see how is it different than a pdf or any other standard.
    - irthomasthomas 4y ago
      Systemd has extended its reach far beyond that of an init system. Long tentacles. Hence I say you are using systemd, not linux.
      - growse 4y ago
        > Systemd has extended its reach far beyond that of an init system. Long tentacles. Hence I say you are using systemd, not linux. You could make the same argument about KDE, or Gnome. It's not a good one. Systemd isn't trying to be just "an init system". You know Linux is just a kernel, right (now's the time for that copypasta I think)?
gnulinux 4y ago
"Abomination" is not a good enough argument. Systemd is very useful, and in order for someone to convince me not to use it, I need to see a good argument against it. "It's too big, it's an abomination" don't have clear technical implications, therefore don't make good technical arguments.
- irthomasthomas 4y ago
  I didn't tell you not to use. I said I don't see any reason for me to use it. I prefer the simplicity of text based LOG files over binary files requiring that you use the systemd API that was changing regularly the last time I touched it.
  - growse 4y ago
    > I didn't tell you not to use. I said I don't see any reason for me to use it. I prefer the simplicity of text based LOG files over binary files requiring that you use the systemd API that was changing regularly the last time I touched it. Modern syslog implementations (e.g. rsyslog) will write journald log events in plaintext, if you're desperate to have plain-text-on-disk.
bee_rider 4y ago
The reason to "add" systemD is that most of the major distros use it anyway, and so to avoid it I'd have to specifically go out of my way to find one like devuan.

kaba0 4y ago

You didn’t mention any single factual reason to not adapt it. Isn’t the usual unix tools just little binaries? Also, IPC can very easily bloat the problem domain to much harder levels because now you have to deal with (de)serialization as well. So doing the same thing what systemd does with pipes would be an unholy mess.

irthomasthomas 4y ago
I mentioned two, the binaries and the long tentacles. To be clear, I was talking about systemd using binaries in place of plain text LOG files. Both those choices are a huge break from linux philosophy. I expected systemd pros would know I was talking about that. Enjoy your systemd. But don't hate on me for prefering linux.
- kaba0 4y ago
  What are long tentacles? As for log files, I don’t see how is it different than a pdf or any other standard.
  - irthomasthomas 4y ago
    Systemd has extended its reach far beyond that of an init system. Long tentacles. Hence I say you are using systemd, not linux.
    - growse 4y ago
      > Systemd has extended its reach far beyond that of an init system. Long tentacles. Hence I say you are using systemd, not linux. You could make the same argument about KDE, or Gnome. It's not a good one. Systemd isn't trying to be just "an init system". You know Linux is just a kernel, right (now's the time for that copypasta I think)?

gnulinux 4y ago

"Abomination" is not a good enough argument. Systemd is very useful, and in order for someone to convince me not to use it, I need to see a good argument against it. "It's too big, it's an abomination" don't have clear technical implications, therefore don't make good technical arguments.

irthomasthomas 4y ago
I didn't tell you not to use. I said I don't see any reason for me to use it. I prefer the simplicity of text based LOG files over binary files requiring that you use the systemd API that was changing regularly the last time I touched it.
- growse 4y ago
  > I didn't tell you not to use. I said I don't see any reason for me to use it. I prefer the simplicity of text based LOG files over binary files requiring that you use the systemd API that was changing regularly the last time I touched it. Modern syslog implementations (e.g. rsyslog) will write journald log events in plaintext, if you're desperate to have plain-text-on-disk.

bee_rider 4y ago

The reason to "add" systemD is that most of the major distros use it anyway, and so to avoid it I'd have to specifically go out of my way to find one like devuan.