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Is a "synthetic gallon" unit really the right thing to measure here? It seems like $ per distance traveled is more appropriate. At $0.63/kWh, assuming a car li

Is a "synthetic gallon" unit really the right thing to measure here? It seems like $ per distance traveled is more appropriate. At $0.63/kWh, assuming a car like the Mustang Mach-E - it'd cost $44.10 to "fill up" the 70 kWh battery. That gets you ~250mi of range, for ~$0.18 per mile. For comparison to ICE cars - take a similarly-sized crossover like the Toyota RAV-4 which gets ~27 mpg. At current gas prices in my area of ~$4.50/gallon that works out to about $0.17 per mile. In the UK the petrol option is considerably more expensive: at ~$8/gallon the ICE option is closer to $0.30 per mile. So the fast-charge EV option is either tied (by US prices) or significantly better (by UK prices) than the ICE option? It's certainly a far cry from the $21.56 equivalent measure you've got. Obviously the math changes somewhat depending on what your benchmark EV/ICE cars are, but at first glance this doesn't actually seem like a bad deal. It's certainly a far cry from the >$20 "gallon" measure. [edit] I was inspired to do the math on what the non fast-charging option would look like based on household electricity prices in my area. At $0.13/kWh the Mustang Mach-E would run about $0.037 per mile. Wow. Even in a state with much higher electric prices (say MA, at $0.24/kWh) that'd still work out only to ~$0.07/mile. Really hard to beat that for gas prices.

reducesuffering 4y ago
Problem is that EV (at least in CA) has huge upfront opportunity cost, depreciation, $500/yr registration, and hefty insurance cost because it’s a $40-$50k car. It’s going to take a lot of ~$0.10 miles (like 50k/yr?) for a $170/yr registration, $25/mth insurance 10 year old Prius to cost as much as an EV. Granted: new vs. used car, and used EV will become cost efficient in a few more years.
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rektide 4y ago
> Is a "synthetic gallon" unit really the right thing to measure here? It seems like $ per distance traveled is more appropriate. I think the value of the MPGe equivalent is glaringly overwhelming, in that it provides a real, truthful, honest & physical equivalency that can grounds understanding & give us a common scale to measure with. We should absolutely think about filling up with electricity in an equivalent way to thinking about gallons of gas. That most electric cars only have ~3 gallons is a feature of them being so efficient. But when a gallon costs as much as it does, that should also be visible and notable. I don't want consumers having two totally decoupled notions of usage. There needs to be some way to think-laterally across electric & gas cars. Being able to understand that gas prices are way lower than electricity prices- as they are- should set off alarm bells. Justifiably. Energy is God's Honest truth. Value is imaginary, a far far downstream happenstance of infinite cofactors. The gallon-of-gas equivalent is absolutely a brilliant move, grounds us to something truthful, & is how we should think of things. Shout out (again[1]) to the Technocracy Movement, which in 1937 proposed an Energy Distribution Card[2], to represent energy consumption embodied in the products & items & work of the world around us. Having a science-oriented, grounded frame of reference to begin to approach reality from is a win, is an opportunity to get humanity thinking straight, able to actually understand a complicated world, simply. Because it's true & honest & real. Only when things are comparable are they real. Money hides, not enlightens the impacts & comparability. Edit: it's been slow for me to accept, but I realize the truth might dissuade people from considering EVs, based off the $/"gallon" idea. I guess I'd say it's important to emphasize the reciprocal end as well: that their 68kW car only has 2 gallons of "gas" capacity. (That's where all the people up-talking MPGe/efficiency circle back around into being right!) Still, I think the uniform scale is incredibly important, makes real something we otherwise could never understand- it emphasizes how massively more efficient E's are. But the prices also could dissuade. But I don't want to dissuade people. Electric cars are awesome. But we need a ground-truth to compare across. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31525240 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31525240 [2] https://www.technocracyinc.org/the-energy-distribution-card/ https://www.technocracyinc.org/the-energy-distribution-card/
Kon-Peki 4y ago
> For comparison to ICE cars - take a similarly-sized crossover like the Toyota RAV-4 which gets ~27 mpg. At current gas prices in my area of ~$4.50/gallon that works out to about $0.17 per mile. In the UK the petrol option is considerably more expensive: at ~$8/gallon the ICE option is closer to $0.30 per mile. Friendly reminder that British gallons are not the same size as American ones ;) I'm on the waitlist for the F150 EV as my first, and I'm certain the operating costs will be a fraction of the gasoline version. I'm really excited.

reducesuffering 4y ago

Problem is that EV (at least in CA) has huge upfront opportunity cost, depreciation, $500/yr registration, and hefty insurance cost because it’s a $40-$50k car. It’s going to take a lot of ~$0.10 miles (like 50k/yr?) for a $170/yr registration, $25/mth insurance 10 year old Prius to cost as much as an EV. Granted: new vs. used car, and used EV will become cost efficient in a few more years.

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rektide 4y ago

> Is a "synthetic gallon" unit really the right thing to measure here? It seems like $ per distance traveled is more appropriate. I think the value of the MPGe equivalent is glaringly overwhelming, in that it provides a real, truthful, honest & physical equivalency that can grounds understanding & give us a common scale to measure with. We should absolutely think about filling up with electricity in an equivalent way to thinking about gallons of gas. That most electric cars only have ~3 gallons is a feature of them being so efficient. But when a gallon costs as much as it does, that should also be visible and notable. I don't want consumers having two totally decoupled notions of usage. There needs to be some way to think-laterally across electric & gas cars. Being able to understand that gas prices are way lower than electricity prices- as they are- should set off alarm bells. Justifiably. Energy is God's Honest truth. Value is imaginary, a far far downstream happenstance of infinite cofactors. The gallon-of-gas equivalent is absolutely a brilliant move, grounds us to something truthful, & is how we should think of things. Shout out (again[1]) to the Technocracy Movement, which in 1937 proposed an Energy Distribution Card[2], to represent energy consumption embodied in the products & items & work of the world around us. Having a science-oriented, grounded frame of reference to begin to approach reality from is a win, is an opportunity to get humanity thinking straight, able to actually understand a complicated world, simply. Because it's true & honest & real. Only when things are comparable are they real. Money hides, not enlightens the impacts & comparability. Edit: it's been slow for me to accept, but I realize the truth might dissuade people from considering EVs, based off the $/"gallon" idea. I guess I'd say it's important to emphasize the reciprocal end as well: that their 68kW car only has 2 gallons of "gas" capacity. (That's where all the people up-talking MPGe/efficiency circle back around into being right!) Still, I think the uniform scale is incredibly important, makes real something we otherwise could never understand- it emphasizes how massively more efficient E's are. But the prices also could dissuade. But I don't want to dissuade people. Electric cars are awesome. But we need a ground-truth to compare across. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31525240 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31525240 [2] https://www.technocracyinc.org/the-energy-distribution-card/ https://www.technocracyinc.org/the-energy-distribution-card/

Kon-Peki 4y ago

> For comparison to ICE cars - take a similarly-sized crossover like the Toyota RAV-4 which gets ~27 mpg. At current gas prices in my area of ~$4.50/gallon that works out to about $0.17 per mile. In the UK the petrol option is considerably more expensive: at ~$8/gallon the ICE option is closer to $0.30 per mile. Friendly reminder that British gallons are not the same size as American ones ;) I'm on the waitlist for the F150 EV as my first, and I'm certain the operating costs will be a fraction of the gasoline version. I'm really excited.