7 ms·

Ask HN: What Is Your Number?

13 points by herodoturtle 4y ago

For example, if I made $10m, I'd take a break from full time work to prioritise hanging out with my loved ones, whilst experimenting with ideas and exploring nature.

fuzzfactor 4y ago
The assumption seems to be made that the higher the number the less work one would want to do. >prioritise hanging out with my loved ones, whilst experimenting with ideas and exploring nature. These type of things can be regarded as out-of-reach sometimes due to insufficient funds which just seem to put a damper on everything. OTOH, growing up in a retirement community non-work pursuits were widely appreciated as a reward of a life well lived. Things like this really permeated the culture where people were supposed to actually have sufficient money before they moved there. It was a bit of a common denominator from people on low Social Security fixed income, up to the minority of those having over $100m. Without money as a student I would say it was even more enjoyable than for the over-65 crowd at the time. After decades of work in a completely dissimilar industrial environment, I have no intention of joining the crowd. For each $1m I would select an additional proof-of-concept or prototype and turn it into an opportunity for an engineer or other operator to co-operate on a sustainable full-scale creation. This could go on forever. They would be doing most of the work, but I would not be pursuing a work-free life yet myself. Without these millions I could always just pick one proven technology and do it myself. Even though I've already done a lot. Not a work-free choice either. Still making up my mind while I contiunue to put money in to Social Security.
cosmodisk 4y ago
I think a couple of million would do it. I'm in Europe and that'd be enough to have a comfortable not complicated life.
_448 4y ago
Instead of a fixed amount, I would prefer on-need-basis funds. That would be a great way to live. Say, today I have a need for $100, then I should be able to afford it. There should also be a cap on how much a person can spend in a day. That way is better than one huge lumpsum amount in pocket.
nateb2022 4y ago
I don't have a number, just a dream. Achieving that is my goal every day, and sometimes that includes earning money to pay bills. Ultimately though, money is not everything, and to me life is more than providing for myself and those important to me. But providing for them and myself is also not meaningless. What's important is why you're doing what you do. For me, I do what I have to do because I love God and I love my family. That makes everything worthwhile. Whether I am rich or poor, happy or sad, in pain or pleasure, I keep going and I'm content because I do my best and that's enough.
elviejo 4y ago
750k I live in Mexico
- herodoturtle 4y ago
  What's life like in Mexico? Is it welcoming to people moving there from overseas to try make a living?
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - amaraia 4y ago
    [dead]
  - SonOfLilit 4y ago
    The secret is to _live_ there (or in Thailand etc') but make your living in the US.
  - water554 4y ago
    Lived there for 2 years. Mexico City, Tijuana, small states. It’s my favorite and least favorite country on earth. People/culture are amazing warm and welcoming. Honestly the best people on the planet IMO. Let me say that again. The best people on the planet IMO. They are cool ass mofos. Amazing natural beauty and sights. Architecture. Delicious cheap food. Low cost of living. Cheap drugs. Fantastic nightlife. Cons: Reliable hot water is extremely elusive. The Mexicans probably have the worst economic / business efficiency I’ve ever seen, with some exceptions. I had an experience where it took 20 minutes to scoop some ice cream and ring me up. The business fuck over the workers. Do not work for a Mexican company. Electronics are 2x expensive if you can find them. Everything is corrupt. It’s kinda safe but not really. You will be looking over your shoulder often. The Mexicans get fucked over so hard by their government it brings tears to my eyes. The government is the worst. The country is seriously upside down land. Nothing surprises me anymore. If you like to party the cops will try to plant drugs on you. 10/10 would live there again once my hair grows back in and the trauma fades away.
nirvanist 4y ago
I think $4m
- altdataseller 4y ago
  That includes a home as well? so a $2m home and $2m in other assets
  - nirvanist 4y ago
    I live in quebec, u can have a nice house for less than 1m, and to be honest not looking to buy stuff just to stop working and not worring about the futur
- herodoturtle 4y ago
  > I think $4m Reminded me of Descartes... "I think, therefore $4m." Lots of layers to that one.
themodelplumber 4y ago
I was talking to someone about this the other day. In case it interests you, they had two numbers: $250K: Day trade & swing trade 3D / W and every other work item is optional. I think they are one of those who does inverse trading based on market conditions. This is someone with a career in tech currently, but more of an exploratory career with various breaks to try new things, and less of a long-ride career. $2M: Move all trading positions to long-term investing or longer-term swings. Materially improve lifestyle in a planned way, based on a budget. They keep to quite a low budget currently, and their only concern seemed to be lifestyle inflation & their own patience. Somewhat annoyingly, I am thinking they would tell you that they also do your $10M stuff already, since they WFH and set boundaries really well. Just a guess though. But I do know people like this who can't reach their number, because they have a problem of details rather than a problem of work & income. So their issue isn't retirement, it's un-detailing their lives somehow. They get sucked into overextensions of their energy levels, and this drives their bad spending habits, or drives them to accept jobs out of fear, and so on. Which IMO is probably way tougher because society doesn't talk about it much and there isn't a college degree you can get in that level of thinking.
- bradwood 4y ago
  swing/day trading 3 days a week? not sure how easy it is to just disconnect from the markets on the days you're not trading though... tricky.
- herodoturtle 4y ago
  Interesting points, thanks for sharing (and so meticulously might I add). $2m is an interesting choice for a long-term investment strategy barrier to entry. Mine was far lower ($10k), and I've had some interesting results in the last 16 years. I know little about day-trading, but it sounds like Cowboys in the Wild West. Exciting, but not for me. But long-term plays fascinate me. 10x on capital etc.
  - themodelplumber 4y ago
    yw. Forgot to add they wrote a simulator for varying market conditions and they liked the $2M scenario best as they looked at sets of outcomes. So of course their threshold for their ideal levels is subjective. $10K, do you mean as a place to start long-term investing? That makes sense. The person I mentioned above sees cash as a position and they heavily manage risk by using structure, so they are probably less cowboy if you look at the details. Like the cowboy riding in the air-cooled luxury train car, riding on the train's schedule...well, it's still the wild west. :-) 10x on capital, for sure, that's big...William O'Neil's famous trading textbook is an example in that area that tends to get the imagination going with fantastic examples like that.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
brudgers 4y ago
Just soup money. I ain’t betting on cake. Making do is in my control. Life is short.
- tailspin2019 4y ago
  Your comment history is full of gems. Keep up the good work :)
- herodoturtle 4y ago
  Rust OOP honey. I ain't fretting snow flake. Raking goo is windfall encore. Wife is haute.
op00to 4y ago
500k cash, I’d quit my job tomorrow and never look back.
- 400knwretire 4y ago
  Is that really enough? I have ~400K (300k liquid, 100k in 401k) and I feel like I could quit and live off it for maybe 5-10 years but then I'd have to start work again and it would be a lot tougher with a massive gap in employment.
  - badlucklottery 4y ago
    I don't think you could just kick your feet up and 100% retire with that much in the US. You'd likely have to get a job. But, with a bit of passive income from investments, it doesn't have to be a particularly high-paying job. Nor does it have to be in or near the sort of city that has those high-pay jobs which means much, much lower cost of living since you aren't competing for housing/daycare/etc. with millionaires.
SonOfLilit 4y ago
Left my startup half a year ago (it's still running) without a major payday. Took a bit of time to rest, and took a few consulting projects because I really missed those (helping startups solve hard problems is _fun_!). Turns out I make enough hourly that I can work a five hour workweek indefinitely and spend the rest of my time exploring projects, learning, teaching, and resting without skimping on anything I care about. I won't even need to change much if I decide to start a family.
- herodoturtle 4y ago
  I like your style. Optimal, stimulating, liberating. How do you run your 5-hour-per-week gigs? For example, I block out 2 hours every morning for a decent sum. I'm curious what your structure is, if you'll indulge me. I am most intrigued by your attitude and approach!
  - SonOfLilit 4y ago
    One customer has me on retainer for 20h/month, I meet with them whenever needed, sometimes hop to their offices just because I'm in the area and working on their stuff with the team around is more fun, when I actually write code it's in long nighttime binges (not recommended, but maximizes fun for me) but a lot of my work there is coordination, design, evangelism. Other than that, I like to take any 2 day or less project that can afford me, because getting to know new industries is awesome. Feel free to email my nick at gmail.
uejfiweun 4y ago
My number is whatever it would take to buy a house in cash and live off my investments for a while. This depends entirely on my rate of burnout. I'm 3 years into my career and I'm feeling good right now, but anything can happen. If I can stick it out for another 20 years, maybe that's enough for a decent home in Los Altos and enough investment income to have a bay area standard of living, so that's maybe $5M to $10M. If I burn out relatively quickly, then maybe I just move to some rural area and live cheaply, so that might be more like $1M to $2M. Of course, the only way I could possibly achieve these numbers is if tech doesn't crash horribly, which is seeming increasingly possible. So I'm trying to buckle down for a standard 50 year career.
- altdataseller 4y ago
  Can $5m in Los Alto get you a decent home and enough left over to sustain you?
- herodoturtle 4y ago
  I like this approach. Instead of focusing on a number, focus instead on the exit lifestyle that I can afford at any given time - starting with what I can afford right now. Then draw inspiration from growing my affordability criteria, and apply this inspiration in my daily pursuit of unlocking an increasingly improved lifestyle. Edit: Fear not; tech won't crash. I've been through a couple recessions now. Tech always perseveres after the hiccup.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
throwaway556 4y ago
If I had $400 I could keep my electricity from being turned off this Wednesday. Not having power is going to make looking for work even harder.
- dang 4y ago
  Yikes, that's hard. I hope you find work soon. Perhaps consider posting in the monthly "Who Wants to be Hired?" and "Freelancer?" threads that will show up here on June 1. Many people have found work that way. (If you don't see these threads on the HN front page, you can find them via https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=whoishiring https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=whoishiring. They get posted around 11am EST on the first weekday of each month.)
yuppie_scum 4y ago
I think 1 mil cash post tax would be enough to FIRE. I’d probably take a lower stress IC role and be fine at that point
cjalmeida 4y ago
I’d slow down a bit, but I do like what I do at $dayjob. We got the option to work 9 out of 12m so I may eventually take that.
deanmoriarty 4y ago
$10M is my number too. Currently at $3M after some painful couple months.
- altdataseller 4y ago
  Why painful?
  - deanmoriarty 4y ago
    The markets have been in a 20%+ correction, so my number was higher before.
    - altdataseller 4y ago
      There are tax implications of selling though so it’s not always black and white.
moralestapia 4y ago
>prioritise hanging out with my loved ones, whilst experimenting with ideas and exploring nature I already do this so it's not a matter of money for me. But in the spirit of your question, I once calculated that and $2M USD would hopefully set me for life (but not my offspring). It may not be enough as inflation is a real thing + as you get older health insurance becomes quite expensive. Things to consider: I live in an inexpensive city and don't plan to move to an expensive one. I enjoy a frugal lifestyle. I already own the house where I live in and don't owe anything to anyone. If any of these things were different, I would definitely need much more money.
bradlys 4y ago
$10m post tax would make it easy to stop working for life. I’d be fatFIRE’d at that point. $2m would make me consider taking a break for a couple years and narrowing in on finding the right opportunities. I almost had that last year but then market crash took all of that away. Add on divorce and you’re looking at a wonderful year. At this point - I have less than $100k in savings+investments that I can touch. It’s going to be a lot less by end of year because I’m quitting my job and trying to reset everything. Post-divorce things have been extremely bad. I need a new partner and SV is not accommodating to that for a single straight man. I’ll have to move to somewhere I don’t want to in order to find a new partner. It’s been a bad 30-something years to only have this much left over. Putting my ex-wife through college and working at risky startups for my 20’s probably didn’t help. I mean - it almost worked.
- altdataseller 4y ago
  Sorry about the divorce. Friend of mine is in similar situation. Worked hard and had enough to retire but after the divorce, now has to resume working.
- herodoturtle 4y ago
  Sorry to hear about the various hurdles you’ve had to (and are still having to) overcome. Sounds like you’ve learnt a lot along the way. Good luck with the next chapter, I hope your experience sets you up for well deserved success.
mmphosis 4y ago
¥0, no assets, no debts, no burdens, live simple, low impact, it's not for everyone, but maybe try it for a day, your money or your life?
Bhurn00985 4y ago
750K-1M of investable assets + a paid off house to comfortably retire early and fully choose how I spend my time. For a break, just enough to cover expenses during the break and find a new job after really, it doesn't matter too much as long as you can hold up your pants.

13 points by herodoturtle 4y ago

For example, if I made $10m, I'd take a break from full time work to prioritise hanging out with my loved ones, whilst experimenting with ideas and exploring nature.

fuzzfactor 4y ago

The assumption seems to be made that the higher the number the less work one would want to do. >prioritise hanging out with my loved ones, whilst experimenting with ideas and exploring nature. These type of things can be regarded as out-of-reach sometimes due to insufficient funds which just seem to put a damper on everything. OTOH, growing up in a retirement community non-work pursuits were widely appreciated as a reward of a life well lived. Things like this really permeated the culture where people were supposed to actually have sufficient money before they moved there. It was a bit of a common denominator from people on low Social Security fixed income, up to the minority of those having over $100m. Without money as a student I would say it was even more enjoyable than for the over-65 crowd at the time. After decades of work in a completely dissimilar industrial environment, I have no intention of joining the crowd. For each $1m I would select an additional proof-of-concept or prototype and turn it into an opportunity for an engineer or other operator to co-operate on a sustainable full-scale creation. This could go on forever. They would be doing most of the work, but I would not be pursuing a work-free life yet myself. Without these millions I could always just pick one proven technology and do it myself. Even though I've already done a lot. Not a work-free choice either. Still making up my mind while I contiunue to put money in to Social Security.

cosmodisk 4y ago

I think a couple of million would do it. I'm in Europe and that'd be enough to have a comfortable not complicated life.

_448 4y ago

Instead of a fixed amount, I would prefer on-need-basis funds. That would be a great way to live. Say, today I have a need for $100, then I should be able to afford it. There should also be a cap on how much a person can spend in a day. That way is better than one huge lumpsum amount in pocket.

nateb2022 4y ago

I don't have a number, just a dream. Achieving that is my goal every day, and sometimes that includes earning money to pay bills. Ultimately though, money is not everything, and to me life is more than providing for myself and those important to me. But providing for them and myself is also not meaningless. What's important is why you're doing what you do. For me, I do what I have to do because I love God and I love my family. That makes everything worthwhile. Whether I am rich or poor, happy or sad, in pain or pleasure, I keep going and I'm content because I do my best and that's enough.

elviejo 4y ago

750k I live in Mexico

herodoturtle 4y ago
What's life like in Mexico? Is it welcoming to people moving there from overseas to try make a living?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- amaraia 4y ago
  [dead]
- SonOfLilit 4y ago
  The secret is to _live_ there (or in Thailand etc') but make your living in the US.
- water554 4y ago
  Lived there for 2 years. Mexico City, Tijuana, small states. It’s my favorite and least favorite country on earth. People/culture are amazing warm and welcoming. Honestly the best people on the planet IMO. Let me say that again. The best people on the planet IMO. They are cool ass mofos. Amazing natural beauty and sights. Architecture. Delicious cheap food. Low cost of living. Cheap drugs. Fantastic nightlife. Cons: Reliable hot water is extremely elusive. The Mexicans probably have the worst economic / business efficiency I’ve ever seen, with some exceptions. I had an experience where it took 20 minutes to scoop some ice cream and ring me up. The business fuck over the workers. Do not work for a Mexican company. Electronics are 2x expensive if you can find them. Everything is corrupt. It’s kinda safe but not really. You will be looking over your shoulder often. The Mexicans get fucked over so hard by their government it brings tears to my eyes. The government is the worst. The country is seriously upside down land. Nothing surprises me anymore. If you like to party the cops will try to plant drugs on you. 10/10 would live there again once my hair grows back in and the trauma fades away.

nirvanist 4y ago

I think $4m

altdataseller 4y ago
That includes a home as well? so a $2m home and $2m in other assets
- nirvanist 4y ago
  I live in quebec, u can have a nice house for less than 1m, and to be honest not looking to buy stuff just to stop working and not worring about the futur
herodoturtle 4y ago
> I think $4m Reminded me of Descartes... "I think, therefore $4m." Lots of layers to that one.

themodelplumber 4y ago

I was talking to someone about this the other day. In case it interests you, they had two numbers: $250K: Day trade & swing trade 3D / W and every other work item is optional. I think they are one of those who does inverse trading based on market conditions. This is someone with a career in tech currently, but more of an exploratory career with various breaks to try new things, and less of a long-ride career. $2M: Move all trading positions to long-term investing or longer-term swings. Materially improve lifestyle in a planned way, based on a budget. They keep to quite a low budget currently, and their only concern seemed to be lifestyle inflation & their own patience. Somewhat annoyingly, I am thinking they would tell you that they also do your $10M stuff already, since they WFH and set boundaries really well. Just a guess though. But I do know people like this who can't reach their number, because they have a problem of details rather than a problem of work & income. So their issue isn't retirement, it's un-detailing their lives somehow. They get sucked into overextensions of their energy levels, and this drives their bad spending habits, or drives them to accept jobs out of fear, and so on. Which IMO is probably way tougher because society doesn't talk about it much and there isn't a college degree you can get in that level of thinking.

bradwood 4y ago
swing/day trading 3 days a week? not sure how easy it is to just disconnect from the markets on the days you're not trading though... tricky.
herodoturtle 4y ago
Interesting points, thanks for sharing (and so meticulously might I add). $2m is an interesting choice for a long-term investment strategy barrier to entry. Mine was far lower ($10k), and I've had some interesting results in the last 16 years. I know little about day-trading, but it sounds like Cowboys in the Wild West. Exciting, but not for me. But long-term plays fascinate me. 10x on capital etc.
- themodelplumber 4y ago
  yw. Forgot to add they wrote a simulator for varying market conditions and they liked the $2M scenario best as they looked at sets of outcomes. So of course their threshold for their ideal levels is subjective. $10K, do you mean as a place to start long-term investing? That makes sense. The person I mentioned above sees cash as a position and they heavily manage risk by using structure, so they are probably less cowboy if you look at the details. Like the cowboy riding in the air-cooled luxury train car, riding on the train's schedule...well, it's still the wild west. :-) 10x on capital, for sure, that's big...William O'Neil's famous trading textbook is an example in that area that tends to get the imagination going with fantastic examples like that.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

brudgers 4y ago

Just soup money. I ain’t betting on cake. Making do is in my control. Life is short.

tailspin2019 4y ago
Your comment history is full of gems. Keep up the good work :)
herodoturtle 4y ago
Rust OOP honey. I ain't fretting snow flake. Raking goo is windfall encore. Wife is haute.

op00to 4y ago

500k cash, I’d quit my job tomorrow and never look back.

400knwretire 4y ago
Is that really enough? I have ~400K (300k liquid, 100k in 401k) and I feel like I could quit and live off it for maybe 5-10 years but then I'd have to start work again and it would be a lot tougher with a massive gap in employment.
- badlucklottery 4y ago
  I don't think you could just kick your feet up and 100% retire with that much in the US. You'd likely have to get a job. But, with a bit of passive income from investments, it doesn't have to be a particularly high-paying job. Nor does it have to be in or near the sort of city that has those high-pay jobs which means much, much lower cost of living since you aren't competing for housing/daycare/etc. with millionaires.

SonOfLilit 4y ago

Left my startup half a year ago (it's still running) without a major payday. Took a bit of time to rest, and took a few consulting projects because I really missed those (helping startups solve hard problems is _fun_!). Turns out I make enough hourly that I can work a five hour workweek indefinitely and spend the rest of my time exploring projects, learning, teaching, and resting without skimping on anything I care about. I won't even need to change much if I decide to start a family.

herodoturtle 4y ago
I like your style. Optimal, stimulating, liberating. How do you run your 5-hour-per-week gigs? For example, I block out 2 hours every morning for a decent sum. I'm curious what your structure is, if you'll indulge me. I am most intrigued by your attitude and approach!
- SonOfLilit 4y ago
  One customer has me on retainer for 20h/month, I meet with them whenever needed, sometimes hop to their offices just because I'm in the area and working on their stuff with the team around is more fun, when I actually write code it's in long nighttime binges (not recommended, but maximizes fun for me) but a lot of my work there is coordination, design, evangelism. Other than that, I like to take any 2 day or less project that can afford me, because getting to know new industries is awesome. Feel free to email my nick at gmail.

uejfiweun 4y ago

My number is whatever it would take to buy a house in cash and live off my investments for a while. This depends entirely on my rate of burnout. I'm 3 years into my career and I'm feeling good right now, but anything can happen. If I can stick it out for another 20 years, maybe that's enough for a decent home in Los Altos and enough investment income to have a bay area standard of living, so that's maybe $5M to $10M. If I burn out relatively quickly, then maybe I just move to some rural area and live cheaply, so that might be more like $1M to $2M. Of course, the only way I could possibly achieve these numbers is if tech doesn't crash horribly, which is seeming increasingly possible. So I'm trying to buckle down for a standard 50 year career.

altdataseller 4y ago
Can $5m in Los Alto get you a decent home and enough left over to sustain you?
herodoturtle 4y ago
I like this approach. Instead of focusing on a number, focus instead on the exit lifestyle that I can afford at any given time - starting with what I can afford right now. Then draw inspiration from growing my affordability criteria, and apply this inspiration in my daily pursuit of unlocking an increasingly improved lifestyle. Edit: Fear not; tech won't crash. I've been through a couple recessions now. Tech always perseveres after the hiccup.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

throwaway556 4y ago

If I had $400 I could keep my electricity from being turned off this Wednesday. Not having power is going to make looking for work even harder.

dang 4y ago
Yikes, that's hard. I hope you find work soon. Perhaps consider posting in the monthly "Who Wants to be Hired?" and "Freelancer?" threads that will show up here on June 1. Many people have found work that way. (If you don't see these threads on the HN front page, you can find them via https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=whoishiring https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=whoishiring. They get posted around 11am EST on the first weekday of each month.)

yuppie_scum 4y ago

I think 1 mil cash post tax would be enough to FIRE. I’d probably take a lower stress IC role and be fine at that point

cjalmeida 4y ago

I’d slow down a bit, but I do like what I do at $dayjob. We got the option to work 9 out of 12m so I may eventually take that.

deanmoriarty 4y ago

$10M is my number too. Currently at $3M after some painful couple months.

altdataseller 4y ago
Why painful?
- deanmoriarty 4y ago
  The markets have been in a 20%+ correction, so my number was higher before.
  - altdataseller 4y ago
    There are tax implications of selling though so it’s not always black and white.

moralestapia 4y ago

>prioritise hanging out with my loved ones, whilst experimenting with ideas and exploring nature I already do this so it's not a matter of money for me. But in the spirit of your question, I once calculated that and $2M USD would hopefully set me for life (but not my offspring). It may not be enough as inflation is a real thing + as you get older health insurance becomes quite expensive. Things to consider: I live in an inexpensive city and don't plan to move to an expensive one. I enjoy a frugal lifestyle. I already own the house where I live in and don't owe anything to anyone. If any of these things were different, I would definitely need much more money.

bradlys 4y ago

$10m post tax would make it easy to stop working for life. I’d be fatFIRE’d at that point. $2m would make me consider taking a break for a couple years and narrowing in on finding the right opportunities. I almost had that last year but then market crash took all of that away. Add on divorce and you’re looking at a wonderful year. At this point - I have less than $100k in savings+investments that I can touch. It’s going to be a lot less by end of year because I’m quitting my job and trying to reset everything. Post-divorce things have been extremely bad. I need a new partner and SV is not accommodating to that for a single straight man. I’ll have to move to somewhere I don’t want to in order to find a new partner. It’s been a bad 30-something years to only have this much left over. Putting my ex-wife through college and working at risky startups for my 20’s probably didn’t help. I mean - it almost worked.

altdataseller 4y ago
Sorry about the divorce. Friend of mine is in similar situation. Worked hard and had enough to retire but after the divorce, now has to resume working.
herodoturtle 4y ago
Sorry to hear about the various hurdles you’ve had to (and are still having to) overcome. Sounds like you’ve learnt a lot along the way. Good luck with the next chapter, I hope your experience sets you up for well deserved success.

mmphosis 4y ago

¥0, no assets, no debts, no burdens, live simple, low impact, it's not for everyone, but maybe try it for a day, your money or your life?

Bhurn00985 4y ago

750K-1M of investable assets + a paid off house to comfortably retire early and fully choose how I spend my time. For a break, just enough to cover expenses during the break and find a new job after really, it doesn't matter too much as long as you can hold up your pants.