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> A human driver in that situation should not spend longer than 5 seconds figuring out and implementing a way to safely let the fire truck pass. The Cruise car

> A human driver in that situation should not spend longer than 5 seconds figuring out and implementing a way to safely let the fire truck pass. The Cruise car took longer. Impossible to say for certain, but I'd bet that a significant number of human drivers would yield to the right (as the autonomous car did), or take longer than 5 seconds to reverse back into the intersection (as was desired of the autonomous car).

SllX 4y ago
If there’s no vehicles or people directly behind the car, no traffic close enough to pose a danger, and a quick spot check confirms this, why would it take you longer than 5 seconds to reverse out of the way? You don’t need to back up into Canada or something, a short distance is enough to let another necessarily impatient vehicle pass. In the end the garbage truck moved, which is why the fire truck was “able to pass within 25 seconds of encountering the Cruise car”.
- sokoloff 4y ago
  5 seconds is a very short amount of time. Humans are pretty bad at quickly solving for and safely executing an unusual response to a scenario they’ve never encountered. I would hope that after coming up with the strategy to reverse that you’d take most or all of 5 seconds to confirm there were no obstacles behind you. It may take you 2 seconds to realize the fire truck is stuck unless you move, 2 seconds to conclude you can only help by reversing, 3 seconds to check your mirrors, 0.5 seconds to shift to reverse, a couple seconds to look at the backup camera to check the spot not visible to the mirrors, 2 seconds to move the car 40 feet, longer if you have to check for cross traffic in the intersection. Aviation research points to the effect of startling to have a negative effect on decision making quality and speed for up to 30 seconds. That’s for trained, generally fit aircrews. Quibble with the times, but I doubt you get to a “most people would complete the task safely in under 5000ms” conclusion.
- treesprite82 4y ago
  > If there’s no vehicles or people directly behind the car, no traffic close enough to pose a danger, and a quick spot check confirms this No traffic close enough to pose a danger isn't a given in this scenario - there may well have been traffic. > why would it take you longer than 5 seconds to reverse out of the way? I think many would be at least slightly hesitant to back into an intersection. There would be initial reaction/braking time, time to check for and evaluate options, then time to reverse backwards with caution. > In the end the garbage truck moved, which is why the fire truck was “able to pass within 25 seconds of encountering the Cruise car”. The autonomous car did yield to the right to the extent it could, so wasn't doing nothing for 25 seconds. Just that (I'll go with the first responders' judgement) doing so didn't give sufficient space.
  - SllX 4y ago
    Pull out a stopwatch and let it go up to 5 seconds. Did that feel like too short an amount of time to watch your mirrors, and throw your car into reverse while making sure the hazard lights are on? The possible dangers at 4am are other cars (and you probably already knew if someone was driving behind you but you check anyway in case someone turned into your lane), people (who probably also heard the sirens and need to be yielding themselves) and animals (who are probably and hopefully not around anymore because fire engine sirens are extremely loud and scary). So you back up while watching your mirrors the entire time. By second 5, even if you go slowly, there should be space enough between you and the garbage truck for a fire engine to negotiate its way around you, and if there are other vehicles around but not also trying to get out the way, then congrats, you attempted to do your civic duty but the other guy failed. You’re absolved of your sins. If that’s what happened, SFFD wouldn’t have complained to the City about this exact situation in which they described the three vehicles present: theirs, Sunset Scavenger’s and Cruise’s. Yielding in the way is not the correct maneuver when it doesn’t allow the fire engine to pass. Doing the maneuver that gets them through in the shortest amount of time without endangering anyone else in the process is, and it isn’t a complicated one, just un-fun and you shouldn’t be out-paced by someone who is literally outside their vehicle at the start of the situation when you are a piece of software that can never leave.
    - 4y ago

SllX 4y ago

If there’s no vehicles or people directly behind the car, no traffic close enough to pose a danger, and a quick spot check confirms this, why would it take you longer than 5 seconds to reverse out of the way? You don’t need to back up into Canada or something, a short distance is enough to let another necessarily impatient vehicle pass. In the end the garbage truck moved, which is why the fire truck was “able to pass within 25 seconds of encountering the Cruise car”.

sokoloff 4y ago
5 seconds is a very short amount of time. Humans are pretty bad at quickly solving for and safely executing an unusual response to a scenario they’ve never encountered. I would hope that after coming up with the strategy to reverse that you’d take most or all of 5 seconds to confirm there were no obstacles behind you. It may take you 2 seconds to realize the fire truck is stuck unless you move, 2 seconds to conclude you can only help by reversing, 3 seconds to check your mirrors, 0.5 seconds to shift to reverse, a couple seconds to look at the backup camera to check the spot not visible to the mirrors, 2 seconds to move the car 40 feet, longer if you have to check for cross traffic in the intersection. Aviation research points to the effect of startling to have a negative effect on decision making quality and speed for up to 30 seconds. That’s for trained, generally fit aircrews. Quibble with the times, but I doubt you get to a “most people would complete the task safely in under 5000ms” conclusion.
treesprite82 4y ago
> If there’s no vehicles or people directly behind the car, no traffic close enough to pose a danger, and a quick spot check confirms this No traffic close enough to pose a danger isn't a given in this scenario - there may well have been traffic. > why would it take you longer than 5 seconds to reverse out of the way? I think many would be at least slightly hesitant to back into an intersection. There would be initial reaction/braking time, time to check for and evaluate options, then time to reverse backwards with caution. > In the end the garbage truck moved, which is why the fire truck was “able to pass within 25 seconds of encountering the Cruise car”. The autonomous car did yield to the right to the extent it could, so wasn't doing nothing for 25 seconds. Just that (I'll go with the first responders' judgement) doing so didn't give sufficient space.
- SllX 4y ago
  Pull out a stopwatch and let it go up to 5 seconds. Did that feel like too short an amount of time to watch your mirrors, and throw your car into reverse while making sure the hazard lights are on? The possible dangers at 4am are other cars (and you probably already knew if someone was driving behind you but you check anyway in case someone turned into your lane), people (who probably also heard the sirens and need to be yielding themselves) and animals (who are probably and hopefully not around anymore because fire engine sirens are extremely loud and scary). So you back up while watching your mirrors the entire time. By second 5, even if you go slowly, there should be space enough between you and the garbage truck for a fire engine to negotiate its way around you, and if there are other vehicles around but not also trying to get out the way, then congrats, you attempted to do your civic duty but the other guy failed. You’re absolved of your sins. If that’s what happened, SFFD wouldn’t have complained to the City about this exact situation in which they described the three vehicles present: theirs, Sunset Scavenger’s and Cruise’s. Yielding in the way is not the correct maneuver when it doesn’t allow the fire engine to pass. Doing the maneuver that gets them through in the shortest amount of time without endangering anyone else in the process is, and it isn’t a complicated one, just un-fun and you shouldn’t be out-paced by someone who is literally outside their vehicle at the start of the situation when you are a piece of software that can never leave.
  - 4y ago