5 ms·

Are there no cars in Europe?

rglullis 4y ago
There are, we are not as dependent on it, and you can bet that the absolute majority of people could live on car-sharing and cab-hailing systems, which would mean that 99% of the "self-driving" problems would go away.
- Mordisquitos 4y ago
  While I agree with you that car dependency is a serious problem in North America and I am also very critical of the obsession with self-driving, I don't think they are necessarily correlated with each other. In fact, one could argue that car-sharing and car-hailing are more amenable to self-driving than a market in which each individual is expected to own a car. I think self-driving is more established in North America than in Europe due to less strict regulations, more availability of capital and technological investment, and particularly the greater predictability and homogeneity of the car-centric roads when compared to European countries. I'd like to see how a self-driving car handles Rome for example—if it can.
  - rglullis 4y ago
    The question that most people seem to forget to ask: what is the societal benefit of having self-driving cars that could not be had by reducing car dependency in the first place? "Roads will be safer"? Yes, they are safer already on cities with well-functioning public transit. "Less drunk-driving"? Same idea: if teenagers can live in areas where cars are not a necessity, they won't be behind the wheel and still be able to meet their friends, go to a party, etc. "Less space needed for parking slots if cars are FSD"? Also true if people are not car-dependent. To me, self-driving makes sense for trucks on highway roads, not for city traffic. And even then, we could also apply the same idea and think "why not improve the rail infrastructure"?
    - sokoloff 4y ago
      Most of my car trips are random route. Most public transit (and all rail) runs on a fixed path. It’s rare that that fixed path aligns with my random route. The only trip I regularly take that vaguely aligns with a bus route is from 2 blocks away from my house to the grocery. (The grocery is about 4 total blocks from my house meaning walking halfway and then waiting for a bus still makes no sense.)
      - rglullis 4y ago
        Do you think that people living in countries that are not car-dependent have all "perfectly aligned routes"? No, they use bicycles, they walk, they rely on better public transit than the one that is available to you. But anyway, how does that relate to the original question? Are you trying to justify your interest in FSD with the argument that would you give you some network of autonomous taxis?
        sokoloff 4y ago
        Sure. I thought I’d left the dots close enough, but perhaps I didn’t. I believe that full self-driving cars will bring benefits above an area just being less car-dependent in general because of their inherent random route ability, which represents a huge time savings over rail and buses which seem to run in a radial spoke fashion. Take the case of an elderly person with limited personal mobility. They are likely driving today because that’s their best option by far. They’re probably not going to start walking to their doctor; it’s probably not a good idea for them to take up biking. Taking a bus into the city center and another one back out to get to a point that’s radially 2-3 miles away and then reversing that to get home seems wildly less practical than hopping into an FSD ride, whether billed like an uber or privately/family owned. That’s what FSD brings over a status futurus that is less car dependent but lacks FSD.
        rglullis 4y ago
        Please, please watch the videos I linked. Especially the Not Just Bikes channel. For example, this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQY6WGOoYis https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQY6WGOoYis can quickly explain why a transport system flooded with autonomous cars and poor public transit would make the overall system worse for everyone. There is also another video that talks about microcars for people with disability and reduced mobility: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9ly7JjqEb0&t=397 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9ly7JjqEb0&t=397 No rational person can watch those videos and conclude that the best course of action to solve urban transportation requires self-driving cars. Getting FSD cars is just a rich nerd fetish which will not solve anything and likely contribute to make suburban sprawl worse.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
est31 4y ago
No but there is way less dependence on cars, at least in medium cities and up. Many developments in america just build suburban deserts where there is just more single family homes around you, where you have to drive to the next supermarket, both because it's so far away, and because sometimes there literally isn't a way for pedestrians to walk on. There are a few good videos on the subject: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajSEIdjkU8E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajSEIdjkU8E * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnKIVX968PQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnKIVX968PQ * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ul_xzyCDT98 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ul_xzyCDT98

There are, we are not as dependent on it, and you can bet that the absolute majority of people could live on car-sharing and cab-hailing systems, which would mean that 99% of the "self-driving" problems would go away.

Mordisquitos 4y ago
While I agree with you that car dependency is a serious problem in North America and I am also very critical of the obsession with self-driving, I don't think they are necessarily correlated with each other. In fact, one could argue that car-sharing and car-hailing are more amenable to self-driving than a market in which each individual is expected to own a car. I think self-driving is more established in North America than in Europe due to less strict regulations, more availability of capital and technological investment, and particularly the greater predictability and homogeneity of the car-centric roads when compared to European countries. I'd like to see how a self-driving car handles Rome for example—if it can.
- rglullis 4y ago
  The question that most people seem to forget to ask: what is the societal benefit of having self-driving cars that could not be had by reducing car dependency in the first place? "Roads will be safer"? Yes, they are safer already on cities with well-functioning public transit. "Less drunk-driving"? Same idea: if teenagers can live in areas where cars are not a necessity, they won't be behind the wheel and still be able to meet their friends, go to a party, etc. "Less space needed for parking slots if cars are FSD"? Also true if people are not car-dependent. To me, self-driving makes sense for trucks on highway roads, not for city traffic. And even then, we could also apply the same idea and think "why not improve the rail infrastructure"?
  - sokoloff 4y ago
    Most of my car trips are random route. Most public transit (and all rail) runs on a fixed path. It’s rare that that fixed path aligns with my random route. The only trip I regularly take that vaguely aligns with a bus route is from 2 blocks away from my house to the grocery. (The grocery is about 4 total blocks from my house meaning walking halfway and then waiting for a bus still makes no sense.)
    - rglullis 4y ago
      Do you think that people living in countries that are not car-dependent have all "perfectly aligned routes"? No, they use bicycles, they walk, they rely on better public transit than the one that is available to you. But anyway, how does that relate to the original question? Are you trying to justify your interest in FSD with the argument that would you give you some network of autonomous taxis?
      - sokoloff 4y ago
        Sure. I thought I’d left the dots close enough, but perhaps I didn’t. I believe that full self-driving cars will bring benefits above an area just being less car-dependent in general because of their inherent random route ability, which represents a huge time savings over rail and buses which seem to run in a radial spoke fashion. Take the case of an elderly person with limited personal mobility. They are likely driving today because that’s their best option by far. They’re probably not going to start walking to their doctor; it’s probably not a good idea for them to take up biking. Taking a bus into the city center and another one back out to get to a point that’s radially 2-3 miles away and then reversing that to get home seems wildly less practical than hopping into an FSD ride, whether billed like an uber or privately/family owned. That’s what FSD brings over a status futurus that is less car dependent but lacks FSD.
        rglullis 4y ago
        Please, please watch the videos I linked. Especially the Not Just Bikes channel. For example, this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQY6WGOoYis https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQY6WGOoYis can quickly explain why a transport system flooded with autonomous cars and poor public transit would make the overall system worse for everyone. There is also another video that talks about microcars for people with disability and reduced mobility: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9ly7JjqEb0&t=397 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9ly7JjqEb0&t=397 No rational person can watch those videos and conclude that the best course of action to solve urban transportation requires self-driving cars. Getting FSD cars is just a rich nerd fetish which will not solve anything and likely contribute to make suburban sprawl worse.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

est31 4y ago

No but there is way less dependence on cars, at least in medium cities and up. Many developments in america just build suburban deserts where there is just more single family homes around you, where you have to drive to the next supermarket, both because it's so far away, and because sometimes there literally isn't a way for pedestrians to walk on. There are a few good videos on the subject: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajSEIdjkU8E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajSEIdjkU8E * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnKIVX968PQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnKIVX968PQ * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ul_xzyCDT98 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ul_xzyCDT98