7 ms·

This may seem an wild idea for those in North America, but how about just eliminating car dependency in the first place?

throwaway92394 4y ago
To put it mildly - this is unrealistic in the US except for major cities. Even then, depending on the city and where in the city, its going to be very difficult to convince and implement methods of cutting cars. While I think it's a good idea I just don't see this happening in the majority of the US other then major cities. In my state I just don't see how it would be possible given people commute 30+ miles regularly.
- rglullis 4y ago
  Start with better zoning laws so that people are not pushed to live 15 miles away from the their work and general/light commerce areas. After that, just copy the playbook from the Netherlands. Amsterdam was very much like most big American cities until the 70s, their streets were steadily being redesigned for human scale and less car dependency. It can be done and it can be done easily if Americans stop believing in their Exceptionalism.
  - Gordonjcp 4y ago
    > After that, just copy the playbook from the Netherlands The Netherlands has a ridiculously dense population and is completely flat. It's only a good model for other places with a ridiculous population density and pancake-flat geography. You couldn't apply the Netherlands model to, for example, Scotland.
    - rglullis 4y ago
      Flatlands or not, it does not mean that cars are the only reasonable mode of transportation. Even if you insist of trying to solve a social problem with technology, it would make more sense for those living in hilly areas to push for electric bikes than self-driving cars.
      - Gordonjcp 4y ago
        I don't see what problem self-driving cars solve, either. Electric bikes are too slow and inefficient, and require expensive hard-to-make components that depend on conflict minerals.
        rglullis 4y ago
        Slow and inefficient compared to what? And what is the difference in battery technology from an E-Bike compared to Tesla?
  - google234123 4y ago
    We live in a democracy where people living in an area have some control over it. And they use this control to block zoning laws.
    - piperswe 4y ago
      They don't block zoning laws, rather they seem to ensure they are as strict as possible
      - sokoloff 4y ago
        If that’s what the people who live in an area want, that’s a democratic outcome. Democratic outcomes are something that I’m inclined to support absent compelling evidence why they should be thrown out.
        rglullis 4y ago
        Except it is not what people want: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJp5q-R0lZ0_FCUbeVWK6OGLN69ehUTVa https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJp5q-R0lZ0_FCUbeVWK6... and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajSEIdjkU8E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajSEIdjkU8E should help you in understanding what is the problem with current zoning laws on the US
        sokoloff 4y ago
        If a majority of people want something else, it seems like there’s a straightforward path for them to take. Do you see it differently?
        rglullis 4y ago
        Was the majority of people that pushed for zoning laws that discriminated against minorities (it's mentioned in the videos if you don't know what I am talking about), or was it a systemic issue that needs to be corrected? Do watch the videos, especially the "Strong Towns" series about the issue of how the rich suburbs are actually subsidized by poorer people living in bankrupt city centers. The only "straightforward" path for this to change is by getting younger people to participate a lot more on town hall meetings and to get their city councils on board with change. The status quo benefits and has no interest in doing that.
ripper1138 4y ago
Are there no cars in Europe?
- rglullis 4y ago
  There are, we are not as dependent on it, and you can bet that the absolute majority of people could live on car-sharing and cab-hailing systems, which would mean that 99% of the "self-driving" problems would go away.
  - Mordisquitos 4y ago
    While I agree with you that car dependency is a serious problem in North America and I am also very critical of the obsession with self-driving, I don't think they are necessarily correlated with each other. In fact, one could argue that car-sharing and car-hailing are more amenable to self-driving than a market in which each individual is expected to own a car. I think self-driving is more established in North America than in Europe due to less strict regulations, more availability of capital and technological investment, and particularly the greater predictability and homogeneity of the car-centric roads when compared to European countries. I'd like to see how a self-driving car handles Rome for example—if it can.
    - rglullis 4y ago
      The question that most people seem to forget to ask: what is the societal benefit of having self-driving cars that could not be had by reducing car dependency in the first place? "Roads will be safer"? Yes, they are safer already on cities with well-functioning public transit. "Less drunk-driving"? Same idea: if teenagers can live in areas where cars are not a necessity, they won't be behind the wheel and still be able to meet their friends, go to a party, etc. "Less space needed for parking slots if cars are FSD"? Also true if people are not car-dependent. To me, self-driving makes sense for trucks on highway roads, not for city traffic. And even then, we could also apply the same idea and think "why not improve the rail infrastructure"?
      - 4y ago
aetherson 4y ago
Yes, why don't we just do the easy thing and fundamentally rework all the physical infrastructure of every locality all at once. Gosh, why didn't we think of that.
- rglullis 4y ago
  It doesn't have to be all at once. The point is that all the money, time and intellectual capital put into the "building FSD cars" are not going to solve the most fundamental problems that exist in car-dependent cities and societies.
  - aetherson 4y ago
    I guess I have a few responses: 1. If fully self-driving cars come along at some point in the recognizable future, I would bet pretty large amounts of money that they'll be extremely popular in Europe or whatever else you're thinking of as not "car-dependent." 2. The amount of money, time, and intellectual capital put into building driverless cars is an infinitesimal drop in the bucket compared to the money, time, and intellectual capital that would be necessary to make a gigantic change in the US physical infrastructure. Particularly time -- there's no way that America is going to change into Europe, well, ever, but particularly not in our lifetimes, so if you want a better transportation system, I wouldn't bet on that. 3. But also, the time, money, and intellectual capital spent on driverless cars is non-rival to any (limited, local) makeovers that American localities are going to get.
    - rglullis 4y ago
      1. "Extremely popular" compared to what? Non-autonomous cars? Taxis? Bikes? Buses? Trains? Yeah, I could see people thinking it would be cool to get a self-driving car as a replacement for the occasional taxi, but why would people stop using the existing public transit alternatives that already work? 2 and 3. The American way for city growth is the cause of financial troubles for most cities. And I cited Amsterdam exactly why it works as an example of how you can redesign a city to reduce car-dependency step-wise. Take a look at https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJp5q-R0lZ0_FCUbeVWK6OGLN69ehUTVa https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJp5q-R0lZ0_FCUbeVWK6... to see the economic problems that plague cities in the US, and how a lot of them are improving simply by changing zoning laws.

throwaway92394 4y ago

To put it mildly - this is unrealistic in the US except for major cities. Even then, depending on the city and where in the city, its going to be very difficult to convince and implement methods of cutting cars. While I think it's a good idea I just don't see this happening in the majority of the US other then major cities. In my state I just don't see how it would be possible given people commute 30+ miles regularly.

rglullis 4y ago
Start with better zoning laws so that people are not pushed to live 15 miles away from the their work and general/light commerce areas. After that, just copy the playbook from the Netherlands. Amsterdam was very much like most big American cities until the 70s, their streets were steadily being redesigned for human scale and less car dependency. It can be done and it can be done easily if Americans stop believing in their Exceptionalism.
- Gordonjcp 4y ago
  > After that, just copy the playbook from the Netherlands The Netherlands has a ridiculously dense population and is completely flat. It's only a good model for other places with a ridiculous population density and pancake-flat geography. You couldn't apply the Netherlands model to, for example, Scotland.
  - rglullis 4y ago
    Flatlands or not, it does not mean that cars are the only reasonable mode of transportation. Even if you insist of trying to solve a social problem with technology, it would make more sense for those living in hilly areas to push for electric bikes than self-driving cars.
    - Gordonjcp 4y ago
      I don't see what problem self-driving cars solve, either. Electric bikes are too slow and inefficient, and require expensive hard-to-make components that depend on conflict minerals.
      - rglullis 4y ago
        Slow and inefficient compared to what? And what is the difference in battery technology from an E-Bike compared to Tesla?
- google234123 4y ago
  We live in a democracy where people living in an area have some control over it. And they use this control to block zoning laws.
  - piperswe 4y ago
    They don't block zoning laws, rather they seem to ensure they are as strict as possible
    - sokoloff 4y ago
      If that’s what the people who live in an area want, that’s a democratic outcome. Democratic outcomes are something that I’m inclined to support absent compelling evidence why they should be thrown out.
      - rglullis 4y ago
        Except it is not what people want: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJp5q-R0lZ0_FCUbeVWK6OGLN69ehUTVa https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJp5q-R0lZ0_FCUbeVWK6... and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajSEIdjkU8E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajSEIdjkU8E should help you in understanding what is the problem with current zoning laws on the US
        sokoloff 4y ago
        If a majority of people want something else, it seems like there’s a straightforward path for them to take. Do you see it differently?
        rglullis 4y ago
        Was the majority of people that pushed for zoning laws that discriminated against minorities (it's mentioned in the videos if you don't know what I am talking about), or was it a systemic issue that needs to be corrected? Do watch the videos, especially the "Strong Towns" series about the issue of how the rich suburbs are actually subsidized by poorer people living in bankrupt city centers. The only "straightforward" path for this to change is by getting younger people to participate a lot more on town hall meetings and to get their city councils on board with change. The status quo benefits and has no interest in doing that.

ripper1138 4y ago

Are there no cars in Europe?

rglullis 4y ago
There are, we are not as dependent on it, and you can bet that the absolute majority of people could live on car-sharing and cab-hailing systems, which would mean that 99% of the "self-driving" problems would go away.
- Mordisquitos 4y ago
  While I agree with you that car dependency is a serious problem in North America and I am also very critical of the obsession with self-driving, I don't think they are necessarily correlated with each other. In fact, one could argue that car-sharing and car-hailing are more amenable to self-driving than a market in which each individual is expected to own a car. I think self-driving is more established in North America than in Europe due to less strict regulations, more availability of capital and technological investment, and particularly the greater predictability and homogeneity of the car-centric roads when compared to European countries. I'd like to see how a self-driving car handles Rome for example—if it can.
  - rglullis 4y ago
    The question that most people seem to forget to ask: what is the societal benefit of having self-driving cars that could not be had by reducing car dependency in the first place? "Roads will be safer"? Yes, they are safer already on cities with well-functioning public transit. "Less drunk-driving"? Same idea: if teenagers can live in areas where cars are not a necessity, they won't be behind the wheel and still be able to meet their friends, go to a party, etc. "Less space needed for parking slots if cars are FSD"? Also true if people are not car-dependent. To me, self-driving makes sense for trucks on highway roads, not for city traffic. And even then, we could also apply the same idea and think "why not improve the rail infrastructure"?
    - 4y ago

aetherson 4y ago

Yes, why don't we just do the easy thing and fundamentally rework all the physical infrastructure of every locality all at once. Gosh, why didn't we think of that.

rglullis 4y ago
It doesn't have to be all at once. The point is that all the money, time and intellectual capital put into the "building FSD cars" are not going to solve the most fundamental problems that exist in car-dependent cities and societies.
- aetherson 4y ago
  I guess I have a few responses: 1. If fully self-driving cars come along at some point in the recognizable future, I would bet pretty large amounts of money that they'll be extremely popular in Europe or whatever else you're thinking of as not "car-dependent." 2. The amount of money, time, and intellectual capital put into building driverless cars is an infinitesimal drop in the bucket compared to the money, time, and intellectual capital that would be necessary to make a gigantic change in the US physical infrastructure. Particularly time -- there's no way that America is going to change into Europe, well, ever, but particularly not in our lifetimes, so if you want a better transportation system, I wouldn't bet on that. 3. But also, the time, money, and intellectual capital spent on driverless cars is non-rival to any (limited, local) makeovers that American localities are going to get.
  - rglullis 4y ago
    1. "Extremely popular" compared to what? Non-autonomous cars? Taxis? Bikes? Buses? Trains? Yeah, I could see people thinking it would be cool to get a self-driving car as a replacement for the occasional taxi, but why would people stop using the existing public transit alternatives that already work? 2 and 3. The American way for city growth is the cause of financial troubles for most cities. And I cited Amsterdam exactly why it works as an example of how you can redesign a city to reduce car-dependency step-wise. Take a look at https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJp5q-R0lZ0_FCUbeVWK6OGLN69ehUTVa https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJp5q-R0lZ0_FCUbeVWK6... to see the economic problems that plague cities in the US, and how a lot of them are improving simply by changing zoning laws.