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> I think the real issue here is a double parked garbage truck forcing the fire truck to go into oncoming traffic in the first place. Maybe there's a need for a

by SllX 4y ago

> I think the real issue here is a double parked garbage truck forcing the fire truck to go into oncoming traffic in the first place. Maybe there's a need for a loading only zone there so that the garbage truck doesn't have to block the travel lane. If there’s a discussion to be had here, it’s not through the frame of the needs of driverless cars. Self-driving has to work in the driving environment that exists today to be viable, and double parked garbage trucks are part of the regular order of that driving environment.

sokoloff 4y ago
When the emergency vehicle is delayed, what percentage of the delay is Cruise’s fault and what percentage is the garbage truck’s? I assign less than 50% to Cruise.
- SllX 4y ago
  Let’s be generous and say 50/50. But look at it this way: one was a vehicle with no driver present in the seat, and the other was a vehicle in which a driving agent is never not present. A human driver in that situation should not spend longer than 5 seconds figuring out and implementing a way to safely let the fire truck pass. The Cruise car took longer. If a human were present with two working eyes and ears and armed with good judgement, they may never have been blocking the way in the first place because a fire truck in SF is blaring it’s horns while it charges to the situation it was called in to answer so it is entirely possible that seeing the garbage truck parked up ahead, they would have opted to not even continue driving because that looks like an obvious choke point for an emergency vehicle trying to pass. Alas, I cannot reasonably expect that kind of situational awareness and judgement from an average human driver so maybe that’s also too big an ask from Cruise. Also note this from the article: > The fire truck only passed the blockage when the garbage truck driver ran from their work to move their vehicle. So in the end, the Cruise vehicle was not the one which allowed the fire engine to pass but a hurried garbageman moving his truck after getting back in the driver’s seat. 50/50 may actually be too generous to Cruise here.
  - treesprite82 4y ago
    > A human driver in that situation should not spend longer than 5 seconds figuring out and implementing a way to safely let the fire truck pass. The Cruise car took longer. Impossible to say for certain, but I'd bet that a significant number of human drivers would yield to the right (as the autonomous car did), or take longer than 5 seconds to reverse back into the intersection (as was desired of the autonomous car).
    - SllX 4y ago
      If there’s no vehicles or people directly behind the car, no traffic close enough to pose a danger, and a quick spot check confirms this, why would it take you longer than 5 seconds to reverse out of the way? You don’t need to back up into Canada or something, a short distance is enough to let another necessarily impatient vehicle pass. In the end the garbage truck moved, which is why the fire truck was “able to pass within 25 seconds of encountering the Cruise car”.
      - sokoloff 4y ago
        5 seconds is a very short amount of time. Humans are pretty bad at quickly solving for and safely executing an unusual response to a scenario they’ve never encountered. I would hope that after coming up with the strategy to reverse that you’d take most or all of 5 seconds to confirm there were no obstacles behind you. It may take you 2 seconds to realize the fire truck is stuck unless you move, 2 seconds to conclude you can only help by reversing, 3 seconds to check your mirrors, 0.5 seconds to shift to reverse, a couple seconds to look at the backup camera to check the spot not visible to the mirrors, 2 seconds to move the car 40 feet, longer if you have to check for cross traffic in the intersection. Aviation research points to the effect of startling to have a negative effect on decision making quality and speed for up to 30 seconds. That’s for trained, generally fit aircrews. Quibble with the times, but I doubt you get to a “most people would complete the task safely in under 5000ms” conclusion.
      - treesprite82 4y ago
        > If there’s no vehicles or people directly behind the car, no traffic close enough to pose a danger, and a quick spot check confirms this No traffic close enough to pose a danger isn't a given in this scenario - there may well have been traffic. > why would it take you longer than 5 seconds to reverse out of the way? I think many would be at least slightly hesitant to back into an intersection. There would be initial reaction/braking time, time to check for and evaluate options, then time to reverse backwards with caution. > In the end the garbage truck moved, which is why the fire truck was “able to pass within 25 seconds of encountering the Cruise car”. The autonomous car did yield to the right to the extent it could, so wasn't doing nothing for 25 seconds. Just that (I'll go with the first responders' judgement) doing so didn't give sufficient space.

by SllX 4y ago

sokoloff 4y ago

When the emergency vehicle is delayed, what percentage of the delay is Cruise’s fault and what percentage is the garbage truck’s? I assign less than 50% to Cruise.

SllX 4y ago
Let’s be generous and say 50/50. But look at it this way: one was a vehicle with no driver present in the seat, and the other was a vehicle in which a driving agent is never not present. A human driver in that situation should not spend longer than 5 seconds figuring out and implementing a way to safely let the fire truck pass. The Cruise car took longer. If a human were present with two working eyes and ears and armed with good judgement, they may never have been blocking the way in the first place because a fire truck in SF is blaring it’s horns while it charges to the situation it was called in to answer so it is entirely possible that seeing the garbage truck parked up ahead, they would have opted to not even continue driving because that looks like an obvious choke point for an emergency vehicle trying to pass. Alas, I cannot reasonably expect that kind of situational awareness and judgement from an average human driver so maybe that’s also too big an ask from Cruise. Also note this from the article: > The fire truck only passed the blockage when the garbage truck driver ran from their work to move their vehicle. So in the end, the Cruise vehicle was not the one which allowed the fire engine to pass but a hurried garbageman moving his truck after getting back in the driver’s seat. 50/50 may actually be too generous to Cruise here.
- treesprite82 4y ago
  > A human driver in that situation should not spend longer than 5 seconds figuring out and implementing a way to safely let the fire truck pass. The Cruise car took longer. Impossible to say for certain, but I'd bet that a significant number of human drivers would yield to the right (as the autonomous car did), or take longer than 5 seconds to reverse back into the intersection (as was desired of the autonomous car).
  - SllX 4y ago
    If there’s no vehicles or people directly behind the car, no traffic close enough to pose a danger, and a quick spot check confirms this, why would it take you longer than 5 seconds to reverse out of the way? You don’t need to back up into Canada or something, a short distance is enough to let another necessarily impatient vehicle pass. In the end the garbage truck moved, which is why the fire truck was “able to pass within 25 seconds of encountering the Cruise car”.
    - sokoloff 4y ago
      5 seconds is a very short amount of time. Humans are pretty bad at quickly solving for and safely executing an unusual response to a scenario they’ve never encountered. I would hope that after coming up with the strategy to reverse that you’d take most or all of 5 seconds to confirm there were no obstacles behind you. It may take you 2 seconds to realize the fire truck is stuck unless you move, 2 seconds to conclude you can only help by reversing, 3 seconds to check your mirrors, 0.5 seconds to shift to reverse, a couple seconds to look at the backup camera to check the spot not visible to the mirrors, 2 seconds to move the car 40 feet, longer if you have to check for cross traffic in the intersection. Aviation research points to the effect of startling to have a negative effect on decision making quality and speed for up to 30 seconds. That’s for trained, generally fit aircrews. Quibble with the times, but I doubt you get to a “most people would complete the task safely in under 5000ms” conclusion.
    - treesprite82 4y ago
      > If there’s no vehicles or people directly behind the car, no traffic close enough to pose a danger, and a quick spot check confirms this No traffic close enough to pose a danger isn't a given in this scenario - there may well have been traffic. > why would it take you longer than 5 seconds to reverse out of the way? I think many would be at least slightly hesitant to back into an intersection. There would be initial reaction/braking time, time to check for and evaluate options, then time to reverse backwards with caution. > In the end the garbage truck moved, which is why the fire truck was “able to pass within 25 seconds of encountering the Cruise car”. The autonomous car did yield to the right to the extent it could, so wasn't doing nothing for 25 seconds. Just that (I'll go with the first responders' judgement) doing so didn't give sufficient space.